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NaughtyGT
25-01-2010, 05:44 PM
just a little job I did on the first day of owning the Mercus! :D

Dadaaarrrr: (drum rolls then, symbol clang) :eek:


http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0356.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0344.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0347.jpg


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gav, & you thought the coolant in the Laser head valleys was a horrid site :(

Located a reco'd head from a North Melbourne Service centre. Complete with VRS kit $1000 exchange. Also sending new Head Bolt kit. Arrives here by courier this Thursday

So, guess what I will be doing on Friday??? ;):cool:

chicaboo
25-01-2010, 05:58 PM
I'll catch up soon enough... :p

NaughtyGT
25-01-2010, 06:08 PM
I'll catch up soon enough... :p

race was with the little gee gees I thought :o

Apparently he reused suss head cause he couldn't locate a 2nd hand one.

This time I went for a reco'd one & will finish job properly. It'll be some nice work. I just got it before it hit red but, turbo (which has done less than 1000 since rebuild & high flow) I don't know the extent of damage yet. Will put it back together & see.

Friday I will start @ sparrow fart am & pull head off. Tomorrow I will be dismantling exhaust from manifold, inlet off & timing gear/radiator out etc.

I guess seller was pissed @ building this beautiful ride, spending $$$$'s& years bit by bit, to have this happen. He thought the coolant loss was just from the original blown head? This is what Mechanic told him. Give her a few oil changes U& it'll come good. Gotta love these fine technos. I don't give a toss whether it is simply a gasket or not. Full rebuild head is going on! New bolts. The lot. Spose bores are glazed know a bit?

chicaboo
25-01-2010, 06:14 PM
I hope that's all it needs [surprised it even needs that :eek:]. :(

NaughtyGT
25-01-2010, 06:18 PM
coolant in the bottom end/turbo & out the oil filler cap? Definately Head Gasket so, may as well replace the head :rolleyes:

I got it @ a steal due to him giving up. He feels rotten cause car has been sitting for 2 years & just started, now this. I couldn't raz him too much even though I saw green. Just ahve to get her back on the road & give her a good service, tune & bigger jets later. Engine hasn't even been broken in. He gave me a box of assorted jets to see. I will talk to an expert here in lower Melbourne once it has been re-engineer cert'd & regoed. Hopefully in next month. It is pretty low so, bit worried about that passing :( I'll take the NSW cert with me. Years old though. Vic Roads only acept Engineer Certificates within 30 days old. Just as a RWC. They treat it the same actually as far as rego is concerned. Just obviously holds more weight.

NaughtyGT
25-01-2010, 08:10 PM
^^ bump to pics Gav :o

matty88
25-01-2010, 09:13 PM
Yummy

Is it running gas research?

70NYD
25-01-2010, 09:51 PM
Yummy

Is it running gas research?

oooh cheers man thats the name of the mob in vic that does awesome injection systems :D i forgot the name and ever since naughty started the LPG thread its been buggin me to remember :D

NaughtyGT
25-01-2010, 09:52 PM
I'd have to check matty? This coulda been caused initially by a leaky inlet manifold gasket or reservior/resorvoir cap not sealing. The ovderheating worries me. I may retension rockers & dump oil & see what's going on tomorrow? Could be a faulty thermostat. Car has been sitting for years & just started regularly.

Will know more tomorrow

Old Grey
25-01-2010, 10:21 PM
If the car has been sitting the head could be corroded between the water jacket holes under the fire ring to the combustion chamber.

I have reco a few of those heads don't remember them being crack prone but they do bend. We just straighten them and service them.

chicaboo
25-01-2010, 10:22 PM
If the car has been sitting the head could be corroded between the water jacket holes under the fire ring to the combustion chamber.

I have reco a few of those heads don't remember them being crack prone but they do bend. We just straighten them and service them.
That's what happened to my TX3 head. :(

NaughtyGT
25-01-2010, 11:15 PM
If the car has been sitting the head could be corroded between the water jacket holes under the fire ring to the combustion chamber.

I have reco a few of those heads don't remember them being crack prone but they do bend. We just straighten them and service them.

that's why I bit the bullet & will replace it with exchange reco'd head. I think I'll check everything like thermo; double check the mani gaskets are right when I fit the VRS; radiator flush, you name it.

NaughtyGT
26-01-2010, 06:58 AM
The VRS kit is quite expensive ($350 or so) so, for $1000, I get reco'd head & VRS kit supplied (peace a mind too regarding head/gasket issues). They just want my old head sent to them when I have reassembled it all. Pretty good guys @ Merc. Head bolts come in a kit. I guess this means they come with a head bolt removal tool? If not, I'll have to get one as bolts have internal hex thread. Complete opposite to the B6/B6T which has hex external thread. At least you can use a sidchrome hex socket for them.

I just hope Bunnings has a Torque wrench this morn. I doubt AutoParts/tool shops will be open today? I was too pissed to think about it yesterday. Just sourced head (very fortunate there was one on the shelf @ Merc;)). I had to pull rockers to view the darn casting number so they could check stock bugger it :mad:

Paid a nickel for it considering the effort gone into it. I'm still dumbfounded why engine builder didn't get head checked over properly & had it reco'd whilst he was eassembling engine. $5k+ mind you. Then, uses old head cause he couldn't source another back then. Telling this poor bastard the "head looks very porous due to age?" Car has only travelled 55k to date! Mind you, the turbo was rebuilt & highflowed ($900 later) & now has this sludge running through it & I saw blue smoke from under bonnet when I noticed car overheating & shut it down (no coolant around). Engine cut out twice too. Then when guy asks builder why there is milky substance on dipstick & smoke coming off dump pipe, gets told, "oh, don't worry bout' it. It's only condensation & it'll work itself out after few oil changes?" :eek:

Biggest thing I am worried about when it goes for it's engineer certificate is ride height. It's pretty low :(

Yummy

Is it running gas research?

Matty, management it's being controlled by MTD ignition etc. Does that help? I just have the head prob' on mind @ present so, can't go over it thoroughly yet

Also, just emptied about 11 litres of oil out of engine :eek: (seller said he just poured oil in before running for an hr:mad:). It doesn't appear to be holding much coolant. In fact, some oil sitting on head has disapated & looks like orig' oil colour :confused: The rest is thick just choc' milk colour. I wonder if it just had minimum coolant & therefore overheated. Some rad hoses look soft too.

Ah shat! :( don't needthis headache

Rupewrecht
26-01-2010, 12:31 PM
Vic Roads only acept Engineer Certificates within 30 days old.

And only accept Victorian engineers certs anyway

Old Grey
27-01-2010, 09:32 AM
Check the top of the block for any faults especially on the fire rings.

Are those bolts the ones you tighten to a low torque and then turn them 90º and then another 90º

NaughtyGT
27-01-2010, 12:46 PM
Check the top of the block for any faults especially on the fire rings.

what exactly are the faults I should be looking for? cracks? scorch marks?


Are those bolts the ones you tighten to a low torque and then turn them 90º and then another 90º

Yep! torque them down to 70nm. Then 90o angle of rotation. Then 90o angle again. This sounds odd! What does this poundage end up then? Am I missing something or do you end up turning each bolt (in correct sequence) 180 degress beyond their initial 70nm torgue up? Sheesh! :eek:

Btw, thanks to your question, I found this: :cool:

During engine repairs that include removal of cylinder head bolts, special care and precautions must be taken during reassembly.

Upon removal of a cylinder head bolt, it is possible for engine oil or coolant to flow into the bolt hole, filling the area of the bolt threads.

During reinstallation and tightening of the cylinder head bolt, this oil or coolant would be highly compressed by the threaded end. It is possible that the resulting pressure of the liquids in the bolt hole could cause the engine block to crack.

Prior to the installation of a cylinder head bolt, all fluids and dirt must be removed from the bolt hole by means of compressed air (be sure to observe safety precautions and wear eye protection)

chicaboo
27-01-2010, 01:05 PM
Lucky I didn't do the head job on my car. I'd be the first bastard to put a bit of WD40 on a thread to help it go in easier... :eek:

NaughtyGT
27-01-2010, 01:53 PM
Lucky I didn't do the head job on my car. I'd be the first bastard to put a bit of WD40 on a thread to help it go in easier... :eek:

no Gav.....hehe. You are recommended to oil both surfaces but I think what they're getting @ is if excess oil/dirt gets down the thread hole, it will be pressurised. Just makes ya think though doesn't it :eek:

zappy65
27-01-2010, 04:17 PM
The reason you go in stages is to seat the Head Gasket evenly.....70Nm -90-90 (degrees)

The reason for the degree's of rotation is to minimize any torque differences each head bolt might have against the block threads....

DO NOT!!! put any oil on or in any of the head threads, this could end in snapped head bolts, wrong torque and degree settings or even a threaded head bolt thread...

Cosmo Dude
27-01-2010, 04:27 PM
Yep! torque them down to 70nm. Then 90o angle of rotation. Then 90o angle again. This sounds odd! What does this poundage end up then? Am I missing something or do you end up turning each bolt (in correct sequence) 180 degress beyond their initial 70nm torgue up? Sheesh! :eek:

It's done this way because at the torque required it's difficult to keep a steady hand and you can get uneven torque settings. First time I heard of this was on an XF Falcon.

Old Grey
27-01-2010, 05:51 PM
That's how they tighten them these days it's more consistent than torquing. If you use different oils the head will get torqued to different torque even though the wrench reads the same.

Yes do them in sequence. Do all the bolts up to the torque as per tightening pattern. Then turn them in pattern another 90º. Then turn them in pattern another 90º.

You don't need this gauge if you mark the bolt head and the head near the bolt.

http://moodle.student.cnwl.ac.uk/moodledata_shared/cdx%20etextbook/dswmedia/toolsEquip/hpt/measuring/usetorqgauge.html

It's rare you would have faults in a cast iron block but just check for nicks or burnt out areas. When you lightly sand the top of the block you will see any if they are there.

If you want to stop corrosion use distilled water instead of tap water and coolant as well. Distilled water doesn't conduct electricity as well as tap water. Try it with a multi meter it has heaps more resistance. And it boils at a higher temp.

NaughtyGT
28-01-2010, 07:23 AM
That's how they tighten them these days it's more consistent than torquing. If you use different oils the head will get torqued to different torque even though the wrench reads the same.

Yes do them in sequence. Do all the bolts up to the torque as per tightening pattern. Then turn them in pattern another 90º. Then turn them in pattern another 90º.

It's rare you would have faults in a cast iron block but just check for nicks or burnt out areas. When you lightly sand the top of the block you will see any if they are there.

If you want to stop corrosion use distilled water instead of tap water and coolant as well. Distilled water doesn't conduct electricity as well as tap water. Try it with a multi meter it has heaps more resistance. And it boils at a higher temp.

thanks mate. Yeah I always use coolant with distilled water. Make up my own dilute using Nulon concentrate. I've just bought the car from a bloke who gave up basically.

The engine was rebuilt less than 3500 klms ago. Bottom end was acid dipped the works before build. I just found out after contacting the engine builder in NSW, the head had been replaced many times & has had helicoils to both ext side & inlet the last time due to this. It has done less than 1000 ks since last visit. He couldn't source another head so, opted to refit it again.

I have sourced a reco head from melbourne. Will be here tomorrow but I won't be doing the job for some weeks. I just don't have the time, esp when I have to pull the manifolds/exhaust/turbo LPG & gear/IC you name it :(off & do it all double sure this time.



DO NOT!!! put any oil on or in any of the head threads, this could end in snapped head bolts, wrong torque and degree settings or even a threaded head bolt thread...

yep, I threaded one rocker arm bolt thread. The last I tightened. That's when I contacted the engine builder who did the work. Told me had been done so many times. They couldn't source another back then :( I'm getting another 4 rocker arm bolts sent as well as the new head bolt kit. 2 rocker arm bolts looked like they came from bunnings lol, 2 had different size bolt heads. (2 x12mm, rest 13mm) hmmmmmm........least the Merc will get TLC now

My reco'd one arrives today suposedly. Funny thing is, they recommend lubing the thread & bolt prior to torquing down :confused:

The water pump, thermo etc should be cool as seller replaced them @ rebuild. Even though car has been sitting, it has been started/run every week, fortnight @ most. That's one consolation I guess. Because I am weary now with the whole thing, it will be probably a few months before I get it on road as a reliable driver. Going to go over everything painstakingly bit by bit. May even get the little 323 back on road earlier @ this rate. It's not so much the dollars but the little things like details for Engineer Cert etc. I know the laws have changed since years back when it was done

Forgot to mention, the engine builder had left bonnet unhinged & as a result, bonnet flew back when driving & so, he was up for new bonnet, paint etc. So, this may have raised tension a bit beween the seller & him. May explain the quick fix with replacing head & get it out?

One thing though, do you think the crank oil seal would be OK after being pressured with 11-12 litres of oil? Seller said he had topped it up with 2 litres to just above dipstick max line. Ran it for 2 hrs the morning he delivered it. I took it around block once. That's all. I did notice oil had come out of filler cap. Justa bit. Would this pressure have done an likely damage to bottom end?

NaughtyGT
29-01-2010, 07:43 PM
well I'm stuffed? Heads off & a look @ the block shows no:1 bore o'ring missing?????? Also, on the head, no:3 valves are white whilst 1 & 2 are dark grey/black & 4, 5 & 6 are brown! There are pit marks on no:1 & no;5 port surround on head & 1 & 5 pistons. Something has gone through IM? Also, Turbo (less than 1k since rebuild) has more play in it (up/down not side/side) than an 8 week old pup!

How can the turbo have that much play in it after a rebuild? I have the freakin receipts for all the work! $900 almost for the turbo. $5,500 for engine & that's just the basic build.

hmmmmmmmmmmm?????????????????

2 of the 3 bores I can see depth in have like a raised ridge about 1 1/2" to 2" down bore?????

really getting interesting for engine with fluckall k's on it

Oh,,,,also, due to the stinking head bolts being so difficult to get out. They were cacked in old greasy shat! I managed to drop one washer down the timing chain cover into block. I do hope it hit the fluckin' sump? Gotta love some of these cowboy engine builders ;)

I thought the block surface had to be dead flush. Bore O'ring's included? These are all raised except the one that appears missing? The 6 metal collars on head gasket that surround each pot would need to crush down onto these rings.

NaughtyGT
30-01-2010, 04:08 PM
Some may find this very interesting:

If you overheated it once before your problems started I would suspect a damaged head gasket. When you overheat the engine the head and block grow due to thermal expansion. When they cool off again the head and block shrink back to original size but the gasket is now crushed and will eventually leak where it crushed. Sometimes right away and sometimes a couple weeks later. This damage can be measured when the gasket is removed. The gasket will not recover or rebound after it is crushed

If not I suspect electrolosis damage. It is possible the head itself has electolosis damage from old antifreeze living in the system. Old anti freeze can actually eat the aluminum head.

This may explain the rediculous trouble to my engine as it sat for years. Even though it was started weekly, t still was'nt run enough & if coolant was old....?

__________________________________________________ ______________________


Few pics prior to herad removal. I chose to remove it with ext & inlet manifolds on & turbo in situ:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0362.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0365.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0360.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0359.jpg

NaughtyGT
30-01-2010, 05:38 PM
think I've worked out what the toss has done to this engine. He hasn't used coolant? OR, coolant is ineffective/too old to maintain properties/structure.

Money in a young dicks hand is like a jewel in a Pigs snout..........?

Now I have to fix the f-up! :rolleyes:

my delightful query is: where the fluck is the o'ring around no:1 pot??????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?? how can it vanish?!?!?!?! :eek: seriously?

chicaboo
30-01-2010, 05:45 PM
It might not have ever been there mate. Just because you have receipts for the work, doesn't mean the work was done right. :( Give it a ring job, a head job, new seals and throw it all back together. Keep it or sell it, just get it to a point that you get some satisfaction from the initial purchase one way or another. :)

Gav.

NaughtyGT
30-01-2010, 05:53 PM
It might not have ever been there mate. Just because you have receipts for the work, doesn't mean the work was done right. :( Give it a ring job, a head job, new seals and throw it all back together. Keep it or sell it, just get it to a point that you get some satisfaction from the initial purchase one way or another. :)

Gav.

fluckin job was done by bush pig wagga wagga scum that should be shot. They left bonnet hatch unlocked & bonnet flew up, bent, they replaced & painted. The paint job is to die for Gav. My guess is they bit the bullet & wacked ****ty head back on & said "see you later". They shoulda stuck to Hyundai Lantras imho!!!!!!! I'm really pissed @ this. No:1 & 6 piston have had something metal put through them. Same pitting on head. Gasket has got that many water jacket leaks it's like swiss cheese. Sorry guys for rant but, after dropping washer down into block........I got more than little bit pissed @ these turkeys. I will never knock anyone for trying but when a guy spends big doe to mhave a job done right & gets a lemon........not on!

What is really getting me is.....I will need to replace the block o'ring before I can replace head gasket. How do I do that? :eek: Btw, I'm going to put Naughty back on road @ same time. It deserves to have coolant/oil running through it's channels :) (not in the same place lol)

Car has my undivided attention now :rolleyes: I can't bare to see it in the hands of another toss-head......no WAY! Truely, it has inspired me to get Naughty out of the garage!

chicaboo
30-01-2010, 06:45 PM
You might even make some more power when it's back together mate. :) Hopefully the tune isn't too far out also.

NaughtyGT
30-01-2010, 07:54 PM
Here's some pics of the head gear seperated ready for clean up etc:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0372.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0373.jpg

IM with Gas Research Mixer:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0371.jpg

Now the Turbo modified stock Ext Mani:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0367.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0370.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0368.jpg

NaughtyGT
30-01-2010, 07:57 PM
Yummy

Is it running gas research?

Yes Matty, Gas Research. Hallam, VIC (sticker on back of Mixer) ;)

I think I have found the problem guys!!!!! The head gasket may be the culprit after all :eek: AMG may make a modded gasket for HP engines. Since the engine is FI'd, this extra heat/stress/power may just be blowing the last 3 gaskets? This is all based on my assumption after knowledge of the B6T SS multi-layer gaskets we use.........hmmmmmmm:rolleyes:

still researching the correct engine applications for this gasket

Old Grey
31-01-2010, 07:35 AM
From what I can see the center cyl(#3 or #4. the white one) has electrolytic corrosion that is touching the fire ring on the spark plug side. The light colour probably indicates it's the problem.

You can see dark sections past the fire ring that says the head is not clamping in areas.

It's common when those heads are overhead badly that they go soft and the threads holding the rocker-cam caps down strip.

You need to wire brush the tops of the pistons and remove all the shrapnel from the tops of the pistons as they can glow when running and ping.

You have to clean the top of the block with a soft wire brush and check the O-Rings are protruding about 0.008-0.0012". If it's a 0.040" wire and it protrudes OK you could run copper head gasket or maybe Cometic make a MLS but I think you have to file the O-rings flat.

You need to clean up stuff to access things and if you have a flash for your camera it would be good.

I can't see the block too well but it looks like rust half the way down the bore if it's not a camera trick.

The pistons look like forgies so there's $1500-$2000

Get a telescoping magnet for the washer.

NaughtyGT
31-01-2010, 04:17 PM
I can't see the block too well but it looks like rust half the way down the bore

Yep! You can see where the water has run down the side too! Here's some better pics:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0378.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0381.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0388.jpg


The pistons look like forgies so there's $1500-$2000

Yep, Aries!

Also, there is a strange lip/ridge about 1 1'2-2" down 3 of the bores. Merc site reckons the blocks didn't have o'rings stock?

NaughtyGT
31-01-2010, 08:13 PM
this doc' explains nicely the extreme benefits of using copper head gaskets with o-rings and receiver grooves to block and/or head/s in high power applications. Something people easily overlook.

http://www.scegaskets.com/page/thetruthaboutracingheadgaskets.html

I always wondered why a heavily modified, turbocharged car I owned so long ago used copper o'rings around each combustion chamber (bore) & when I used a stock gasket, it blew within 10 mins of driving. Now I know full well thanks to this article & others like it. This is the easiest to grab a quick understanding.;)

Needless to say, th Merc engine had o'rings and receiver grooves fitted to block but, my guess is the stock gasket that went on this last time, didn't cut it. It moved inwards/outwards under pressure exherted by boost. The o'rings clamp the gasket & prevent it from slipping! Very friggin' interesting :cool: To think the engine nwas only run in too!

Now I need to replace these o'rings & order a copper gasket. I have 1 or 2 contacts from brousing the net on Merc forums but will contact Merc shop here in morning first to see what they have/know. I want this thing fixed this time right! :)

Thanks for continued input from you guys in this thread. Awesome of you ;)

NaughtyGT
31-01-2010, 08:48 PM
from studying this failed head gasket it becomes too clear the water was coming in from the top. Corrosion all over the top surface of gasket. Figure warped head. There is evidence on most fire rings of uneven clamp pressure. Some are even jammed into bore from looking @ gasket others seem only lightly squashed down. Overheating could account for the uneven gasket depth though as the gasket bhas been crushed & not rebounded. Stock gaskets don't rebopund after being subject to extreme expansion & then contraction. Hence, ability for coolant to leak straight over surface & into pots!

Old Grey
31-01-2010, 11:17 PM
I can't see the O-rings properly is it the copper colour circle on the top of the deck. Try using a lamp without the flash because the camera can't focus in the dark

We don't use copper O-rings we use steel like MIG wire so they can never get squashed. The O-ring has 0.002" press in the groove so they don't fall out. It's nearly impossible to replace o-rings as there is not much chance finding the same size wire that will press into the groove, you can roll the wire and super-glue it if the wire is fractionally smaller. If you use 0.040" wire you don't really need a receiver groove but putting one in will hold more power. Any wire thicker than 0.040" must have a receiver groove. There must be one protruding o-ring that fits into the receiver groove, not twin o-rings that press on each other like one in the block and the head. It's best to put the O-ring in the block as it's more rigid, if you put it in the head you can't re-mill the head if it's bent without machining the o-rings. If the protrusion is more than 0.012" you must have a receiver groove. Ridgecrest make copper gaskets in different thicknesses. A O-ring can be used on a material head gasket if the ring rests on the outside (water side) of the fire ring.

By corrosion I mean in the 2nd head pic down on the white cyl right where the exh valve get close to the fire ring (6 o'clock position) there is a spot of missing gouged out Alum.

NaughtyGT
01-02-2010, 05:47 AM
I can't see the O-rings properly is it the copper colour circle on the top of the deck. Try using a lamp without the flash because the camera can't focus in the dark

We don't use copper O-rings we use steel like MIG wire so they can never get squashed. The O-ring has 0.002" press in the groove so they don't fall out. It's nearly impossible to replace o-rings as there is not much chance finding the same size wire that will press into the groove, you can roll the wire and super-glue it if the wire is fractionally smaller. If you use 0.040" wire you don't really need a receiver groove but putting one in will hold more power. Any wire thicker than 0.040" must have a receiver groove. There must be one protruding o-ring that fits into the receiver groove, not twin o-rings that press on each other like one in the block and the head. It's best to put the O-ring in the block as it's more rigid, if you put it in the head you can't re-mill the head if it's bent without machining the o-rings. If the protrusion is more than 0.012" you must have a receiver groove. Ridgecrest make copper gaskets in different thicknesses. A O-ring can be used on a material head gasket if the ring rests on the outside (water side) of the fire ring.

By corrosion I mean in the 2nd head pic down on the white cyl right where the exh valve get close to the fire ring (6 o'clock position) there is a spot of missing gouged out Alum.

No:1 o'ring is missing!!! (it is out of it's receiver groove!) So I'm stuffed now to replace it it seems? :eek: How could it be missing? The other 5 are steel, not copper & all have receiver grooves! I presumed you would use copper head gasket, not original steel as I have read in articles?

Also, no:1 & 6 on the head have had chips or something metal pound **** outta them & have bad pitting, same as 1 & 6 pistons. Has the fact that the turbo is flogged after just 1000k have anything to do with this? up/down movement like I've never seen & was rebuilt/highflowed before fitment!

I am resorting to pulling engine & getting it rebuilt again by a guy I trust. From sump to rocker cover! Phuck it! Unless after talking to a good builder I know, states otherwise? I hate cowboys working on anything else other than their pardners! Yeehar!! No what I mean :mad: This thing won't be reliable & is gonna crap me off everytime I drive it otherwise! Wondering whether it will overheat again. Phuckin' turbo can go root itself too :mad: How can it be brand new & have that much movement :confused: Cowboys should never have anything but their flesh tools in their hand :D:D:D

Now I'm up for a long, long haul. Bright side, I can start on Naughty in meantime, after I prep the bay etc of the Merc :) Some consolation I guess :o

Old Grey
01-02-2010, 08:50 AM
http://img42.imageshack.us/img42/6636/oring1.jpg (http://img42.imageshack.us/i/oring1.jpg/)

The O-ring still looks like it's there (red arrow). If it fell out find it and super-glue it back in.

There is a groove cut in the block and the O-ring is hammered in and should protrude 0.010", we call this the o-ring groove.

The receiver groove is cut in the head so that when the head is bolted down the copper(copper head gasket) or steel fire ring(material gasket) is pushed up in to the receiver groove. It accepts this bulge from the o-ring which locks the gasket in a up across down fashion(castellated).

http://img59.imageshack.us/img59/9944/headkz.jpg (http://img59.imageshack.us/i/headkz.jpg/)

This corrosion looks like it caused your problems.(red arrow)

Notice how there is no receiver groove in the head but you probably don't need one.

Bits of metal embedded in the head and pistons is common on std Toyota's, 7MGE especially. Smooth them out and it should be fine if no metal protrudes.

If the turbo has bad oil supply, ie pressure, volume or contaminated(maybe water) it can wear out quick.

NaughtyGT
01-02-2010, 09:49 AM
The O-ring still looks like it's there (red arrow). If it fell out find it and super-glue it back in

that's just the o'ring groove you can see then. The o'ring is lost.

The bores have that horizontal ridge line I spoke of, running across bores. This is what I don't like the most :(

NaughtyGT
01-02-2010, 08:10 PM
a better look shows @ least 2 of the bores have vertical rust lines where water has run & actually rusted the steel. You can actually feel pitting with your finger nail up the bore on one. I think I will be tossing this block for a good 2nd hand one & have it rebored. Problem is, I can't tell what oversize the forgies are @ this point. No numbers on piston top. Unless they're stamped on the underside? If they are stock bore size, the blocks history think & I will haver to source a perfect block. These blocks were built to do amazing mileage so, may not be impossible. Just a pain to find & pick it up, deliver it etc.

Engine is ready to be jossled out once I get time off work to pick up a hoist.

I hope I can wiggle engine off box without dropping tailshaft etc. Will be tight with torque converter attached though. hmmmmmmm, fun ahead:(

I have thought about getting a later model, bigger displacement engine but, Stand Alone would have to be flashed ($$$) & I'd loose the forgies for sure. It's going to be a long haul for this first stage I think :confused:

zappy65
01-02-2010, 08:35 PM
well I'm stuffed? Heads off & a look @ the block shows no:1 bore o'ring missing?????? Also, on the head, no:3 valves are white whilst 1 & 2 are dark grey/black & 4, 5 & 6 are brown! There are pit marks on no:1 & no;5 port surround on head & 1 & 5 pistons. Something has gone through IM? Also, Turbo (less than 1k since rebuild) has more play in it (up/down not side/side) than an 8 week old pup!

How can the turbo have that much play in it after a rebuild? I have the freakin receipts for all the work! $900 almost for the turbo. $5,500 for engine & that's just the basic build.

hmmmmmmmmmmm?????????????????

2 of the 3 bores I can see depth in have like a raised ridge about 1 1/2" to 2" down bore?????

really getting interesting for engine with fluckall k's on it

Oh,,,,also, due to the stinking head bolts being so difficult to get out. They were cacked in old greasy shat! I managed to drop one washer down the timing chain cover into block. I do hope it hit the fluckin' sump? Gotta love some of these cowboy engine builders ;)

I thought the block surface had to be dead flush. Bore O'ring's included? These are all raised except the one that appears missing? The 6 metal collars on head gasket that surround each pot would need to crush down onto these rings.

The "pitting"on the deck of the piston crowns is caused by either something hitting it or if ti looks like bubbling, its been boosted and that's detonation on the crowns...happens all the time to B6T and BPT when people do stupid **** to them

If the turbo is a BB unit, run some oil through the oil inlet and spin the shaft, if the play is there, the turbo is stuffed but BB turbos use the oil to centre the shaft so give it a go...having no oil in there while it sits there and then suddenly turning it is bad for the bearings as well...

The ridges in the bores are from the incorrect end gaps on the comp rings and really bad honing perhaps...these are usually honed out when you get oversized pistons...has the engine been honed or oversized?...

The "bore O rings" are actually refereed to as "fire rings" because they seal the combustion pressures from the water galleries etc ITS almost impossible for them to be missing as its part of the HG?????...............

This engine has had the raping of its life and was rebuilt by what sounds like a dodo bird...

Its really funny but Im actually in the middle of rebuilding a BMW engine for my boss at work...mainly just a re ring and re seal but Ive done everything properly..

NaughtyGT
02-02-2010, 06:31 AM
The "pitting"on the deck of the piston crowns is caused by either something hitting it or if ti looks like bubbling, its been boosted and that's detonation on the crowns...happens all the time to B6T and BPT when people do stupid **** to them


you can actually see shape of oblong filings on part of the head surface & the pitting is like you got a cold chizel & bashed both head surface & piston tops

If the turbo is a BB unit, run some oil through the oil inlet and spin the shaft, if the play is there, the turbo is stuffed but BB turbos use the oil to centre the shaft so give it a go...having no oil in there while it sits there and then suddenly turning it is bad for the bearings as well

I don't think Garrett/Airesearch T03/4's are BB? There is a small, perfect u-shaped chunk out of one compressor wheel blade, @ the back too :( I can't see any surface scrapes though on either the compressor snout bore or the turbine bore

The ridges in the bores are from the incorrect end gaps on the comp rings and really bad honing perhaps...these are usually honed out when you get oversized pistons...has the engine been honed or oversized?

Can't tell until rebuilder looks @ it/pulls it down. There are no number markings on the piston tops, perhaps they are on the underside?

The "bore O rings" are actually refereed to as "fire rings" because they seal the combustion pressures from the water galleries etc ITS almost impossible for them to be missing as its part of the HG

no, the block has been grooved & o'ringed! Not the head. HG is a stocky. This engine was meant to withstand a rediculous amount of grunt. The turbo was high-flowed @ time of rebuild also. I agree the engine builder needs to stick to using his hand for a non-metal tool!

This engine has had the raping of its life and was rebuilt by what sounds like a dodo bird...

I can't believe what this engine has been subject to. You could cry just staring @ it. $$$$ for what? The engine bay has been cut/modified/heat shielding & steel plate everywhere to withstand the extreme heat from dump pipe almost bhard up against bay firewall. The LPG mixer conversion to the IM etc. The exhaust system looks like someone took alot of effort to get it right. Bends & all. Looks alot older than 3-4k though :rolleyes:

I just hope I can reuse the forgies with a new set of rings but I don't like my chances @ this stage

Thanks for input & info mate, appreciated! ;)

Old Grey
02-02-2010, 08:26 AM
That block doesn't look too bad probably just needs a power hone. Unless the bore is split which is rare unless the bore walls are thin(only have seen Clevos split). A pressure test will tell you. Take it to a block boring shop for advice.

If the ring gap was wrong and the rings butted it would crack the ring lands on the pistons. Look for shiny spots on the ends of the rings like if the gap closed up and they were rubbing, and also snapped ring lands.

When they bore a block you have to supply the pistons new or old and they measure them and bore the block to suit. Just measure the bore for the piston size.

NaughtyGT
02-02-2010, 04:14 PM
will be pulling engine out this week & taking complete block to rebuilder. He can go right through it then & give me the run down. I need this car ultra reliable as it's going to go on many a trip as our weekender/interstater up ahead when I get holidays :rolleyes:

There is a stock, unopened 300E Merc in US runnng twin turbotechnics turbos @ 7-10psi boost, ran 7psi for 68k miles! Now is trying 10:eek:

This is the reply I got from him:

Stock head gasket on a M103-12V is fine for turbo applications.
The stock engine has a 9.2:1 compression ratio which easily can do 10psi boost with the proper AFR. I'm running twin Garrett T2's on stock internals with about 68K miles on it. At 7 psi it pulled 300 lbft torque at the rear wheels on a load dyno. Currently increased to 10 psi but not yet dyno'd.

If this is true, my cars' engine should take 3x the power this was putting out, maybe more.

There is a merc turbo specialist on a US forum (peachparts) that I may pay a visit once engine is looked @. Few merc forums mention it.

NaughtyGT
04-02-2010, 08:49 AM
Spoke to Gas Research (used to be @ Hallam here in VIC, now in QLD) they don't do injection just carb/convertors.

There is a guy near me here in Vic that does do the liquid injection that was alluded to. $5k+ & totally different set up than LPG cylinder. This guy I will be talking to this morn' can sort out the mixer.

I still believe corrosion & heat played the ultimate part in damaging this engine. Bad tune? wrong set up? Even the convertor water lines are rusted through. Well, @ least I got on to the right guy for the job. Now I gotta find time to pull engne @ get it to the builder first, then this as guy.

NaughtyGT
04-02-2010, 10:17 AM
located the AMG gasket but need to sit down & crack a beer before I ask the price from them. It is the one for 3.2L engine. Only stroke is different, std bore.

NaughtyGT
05-02-2010, 08:25 AM
Since found out that although you retard timing with boosted petrol, you advance it with boosted LPG! Perhaps previous engine builder/tuner didn't know this? This would explain the detonation/heat issues to the 2 cylinders & then the miriad of dramas poor engine suffered :confused:

Man this is a steep learning curve :eek: Sourcing world over, not many of these Merc's have had serious mods yet alone bosting. Even then, they are merely Turbotechnic Twin Turbo kits bolted on stock 3.0L engines with accurate AFR tweeking. That's it! Stock head gasket can handle heaps of HP & 7-10psi 420odd HP seems OK :eek:

One guy who seems to rule the roost so to speak amongst US forums is running a GT45 on stock 3.0L engine producing 650HP via 1000cc injectors with Megasquirt Stand Alone. Fark! He has custom manifolds & I think AMG head gasket. There what they use for 10.5:1 CR NA set ups.

A bit of misinformation floating around though & phluck all concerning boosted LPG. Mainly due to ignorance & price of conversion along with fact they have cheap as E85 in some US states (cornbelts) Something RodHog was alluring to in the Boosted LPG thread I started

I don't think this engine will resemble the old build too much btw :D (evil snicker) Time isn't on my side though. I have to get Naughty up & going sooner or later & it's got enough sorting of bits & pieces to give you an extreme migraine :o Double Trouble! :p

NaughtyGT
08-02-2010, 09:33 AM
spoke with LPG installer this morning. The set up was wrong by way of only utilising the 1 convertor (vaporiser). It needs to be set up with a 2nd then dynoed. Dyno with LPG is quite cheaper than petrol due to the simplicity of mixer set up. One good thing i suppose.

There is no chance of converting back to Petrol as it has been completely modded for gas. Would cost a fortune now.

LPI? No way, to expensive for the job & may not even be viable kit for one available.

Taking engine to builder today also. Now it is getting somewhere :cool:

I'm chasing a very conservative 400rwhp. Merc 3.0L engines can do past this stock but I have to consider the rest of the drive train & reliability. If I am going to go through all this crap with this car I want reasonable figures @ the end baybe blue!!! Don't give a toss about figures personally, just that I can now I am getting engine rebuilt so, why not? At least I don't have to worry about injectors. All I have to do is increase gas jets :)

Turbo size/type is the next consideration that will determine hp figures ultimately.

Progress sort of :o

NaughtyGT
09-02-2010, 07:20 AM
Engines out & @ the builders ;)

Here's some epic removal pics haha :p What a bee-itch to get out. No room, had to raise/lower engine & box so many bleed'n times. The P-Steering hose got caught after tying everything up & taking deligence with it all. Got caught round' the mount rubber block :p After about 10 mns of tugging........:o.......saw the prob then, woosh, out!:)

I swear those engines were custom fit to engine bay. Look @ pics! :eek::eek::eek: hehe no wonder the larger capacity later six's were stroked not, bored out. Wouldn't have got em' in there!

Sooooooooo close or what! :eek:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0422.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0423.jpg

cracked! ;)

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0412.jpg

ready to pull out :D

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0424.jpg

out! :cool:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0429.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0428.jpg

Aftermath :o

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0436.jpg

NaughtyGT
10-02-2010, 08:09 PM
Verdict from builder...........absolutely shagged! The engine has seen it's last mileage I'm afraid. Block surface is so uneven no wonder head gasket kept blowing. Cylinder bores were buggered. Heaps of piston slack.

Not to mention stock Mercedes engine parts are stronger than after market parts. Only if you choose to excel 700hp do you then need the H-beam rods. Lesson for young Merc players ;)

The light @ end of the tunnel though. I spoke to Merc' spares dealer/Importer here in Vic. The one I sourced the reco' head from. He has a 90' model 3.0L with just 100,000kms (60,000miles) on it! It's currently in a Merc being pulled apart fopr spares. He wanted $1500 for it (that's with taking back the reco head again) but under the condition he got to install it. $1000 for install including I guess injectors, lines, harness etc for petrol? Plus, cost of anything they found they had to replace would be extra.

However, when I mentioned more clearly that he would be dealing with LPG & a turbo, & I didn't thing he would be able to get it sorted, he went quiet for couple of secs then said, you can have the engine for $1000 change over. Long motor without accessories How cool is that! Now I have a good low klm engine to start with properly & reliably. So rapped!

I know EFI is the bees knees. Just the $$$$ & effort to get it. I'll talk to LPG guy again & see if he can source me some starter injector kit & then I'll be better informed. There's just other stuff I need to do for engineers cert' already.

Will think on this thoroughly though over next few days.

chicaboo
10-02-2010, 08:14 PM
Alright, put it back together and get it tuned, STAT! :)

Mad Mat
10-02-2010, 11:16 PM
dude sory about the engine hey. but great find with the new motor. :D lol wish u where up in qld with the rest of the qld crew so we coudle see these beasts :P plus i love this picture of the 323 :P

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0428.jpg

good to see she is goin strong :D and clean too :o

NaughtyGT
11-02-2010, 06:38 AM
hey mat, wish I was up there too @ times. You guys seem to do more as a group then we do down here :( Thanks guys again :)

NaughtyGT
12-02-2010, 05:57 AM
Here's the latest low-down on Project.

Engine will be out of donor car next week. Coming with the IM so I'll have a spare to use with Gas install. I will have a bit of stuff to organise like stall convertor, few lines that were cut before I install it though. Biggest hassle right now is getting Turbo looked @ for wear. Mainly the time to get it to shop along with ext system sorted :o I want to go 3" in place of 2 1/2-3/4 it has now. It's all rusted & crap anyway but @ least I have it a a template for bends so, hoping I can get dump/down made off the old ones & then get rest done @ ext shop once install is complete. Then, get it to LPG guy :)

After speaking @ length with Boss @ Swift Automotive here in Vic (Gas Research Specialist/Installer) I'm convinced he can get the engine to run with Mixer set up. He is responsible for present quickest LPG turbo drag car in Aus, using the mixer set up. Apparently the up-to-date technology incorporated by GR is quite spiffy compared to the older set ups people are familiar with. The US are lagging behind us. Important considerations necessary when using mixer are feed line diameter; convertor capacity/number of & of course, proper tune.

Secondly, there is available a primer pump that is used to alleviate cold start time/backfiring, common with older set ups.

Thirdly, by way of protecting the turbo, he runs a seperate oil filter so sump oil-to-turbo is double filtered, allowing turbo seal longevity.

He shyed away from big HP numbers due to ignorance of engine capability. When I told him Merc engines were factory built stronger than modified engines & 100k on a Merc was like 30k on other engines, he sorta got interested. I need to keep working with him on this point I'm afraid :o

Forthly, he has offered to make up a custom exhaust manifold, similar to a spaghetti one in Europe they do that is unbelievable. Allows spool up @ low revs with large turbo. He uses 16 guage steampipe with tig welds. I'm sending a pic of the european one for him to see how they make them & whether he can match quality. If he can, saves me OS freight charges :)

So, by going with mixer I'll save $5k! (4k extra with LPI & up to $1k for Stand Alone necessary for this mod. This means I can now get the custom spagetti ext mani! :D

Also, to lower turbo lag, considerig I'm using auto trans, I need to look @ turbo size/condition. I may go bigger compressor but leave turbine diameter as is. Stall convertor; custom ext' mani'; ext' system mods etc all need careful consideraton. Lots a fun yet before it's on the road. Hopefully, it will be before winter though.

I'll wack some pics up of EM soon as my browser lets me upload again :mad: It's blocking all passwords & not remembering them.

NaughtyGT
12-02-2010, 05:38 PM
Was put onto a genuine old-school turbo guy today by a bloke @ equipment hire place who used to send him his turbo wok when he was in the performance engine building game. What a blessing man :cool: Just south of Melbourne CBD @ Moorabbin.

He checked over my high-flowed Garrett & said, even though it has copped a bit of wear, it's still OK for a while. Should be good for 450hp. The chip out of the compressor wheel was purposely machined as part of the prior balancing when it was high-flowed. This is one big saving. Means I can use it to get car up & running & to the Gas Research techy & get it all modded up properly & dynoed ;) If anyone wishes to get into contact with this guy for turbo servicing, rebuilding etc. Just PM me. Btw, other shops want from 500+ to replace seals & bearings. He said he'd do it for me for couple of hundred. parts aren't that expensive really. Obviously if anything more extensive is requested, it will be more. He shoots straight from the hip so to speak.

Things are working out after such a shock I copped with car :o Now I can truerly smile a bit! Saving some money so I can put it into stuff I really need ASAP. I feel things are moving along well considering the enormous task I have ahead to get this thing running perfect before winter. Mainly time to do it all as I am fitting engine; ext system; somewhat modded IC piping myself. The initial get-up-go anyway cause I have no help down here lol. I may have to go bigger IC piping. Outlet piping anyway.

The new engine was pulled out of the salvage Merc today so, hopefully it will be sent out next week :cool:

Been driving around south Melbourne for last 7hrs.......exhausted & having a beer here @ home now hehe

NaughtyGT
15-02-2010, 05:42 PM
TCT stall convertor specialists here in Vic are doing up torque convertor & will be ready Wed or Thurs ;) Not cheap though but stally will be 2500rpm :cool: This was a necessity with auto trans & LPG/turbo combination. Stock box would be a bit ordinary imo. LPG & lag isn't really something to write home about :o No power benefits with LPG without the boost kicking in if you know what I mean :rolleyes: No fuel pumping (so to speak) so I am trying to eliminate lag as much as poss'. I should know a better picture of what revs boost will kick in once I sort the spaghetti ext' manifold out.

Finding the time is the big killer for me @ moment

chicaboo
15-02-2010, 05:45 PM
What will that do to your revs at 100kph? Cause if it normally revved lower than that, won't it now not rev any lower than 2500rpm? :confused:

NaughtyGT
15-02-2010, 05:50 PM
nah Gav. That's what I thought so I asked the specialist. How he explained it is, when applying brakes, 2500rpm will be when tyres will lose traction. You can move off the mark @ lower speeds but it won't allow you to pull hard until the boost comes in. That's the theory. So, anything from 2300 up to 3000, should see good take off & spool, with auto ablidging it rather than trying @ lower revs like a sausage dog trying to race after a rabbit, waiting till' it gets greyhound legs some day lol :p

edit: that metaphor really sounds wierd after reading it again.....sorry:o

edit edit: gotta realise the difficulty with turbo/auto relationship that is bound to be there is personified due to LPG fueling the thing. I don't want auto behaving like a bad link in the chain

chicaboo
15-02-2010, 05:57 PM
I still don't get it. :p

NaughtyGT
15-02-2010, 06:05 PM
imagine how I felt when he explained it 3 times hehe :eek: I kept telling himm I wanted it to be 2300, he kept insisting, 2500.....figure? :(

I think he knows better than me so, bugger it. Long as it transforms the slow auto into something more like a jogger :D

NaughtyGT
16-02-2010, 05:31 AM
Here's a few pics of the manifold I'm hoping Peter over @ Gas Research can replicate. This one is furbished to order in Sweden. Perfect craftsmanship mas you'll see in pics:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERCUS/untitledz.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERCUS/untitledd.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERCUS/untitledf.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/untitledmm.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERCUS/untitledi.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERCUS/untitledh.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERCUS/untitledj.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERCUS/untitledk.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERCUS/untitledb.jpg

NaughtyGT
18-02-2010, 06:28 AM
still awaiting contact from all of my workshop people :( 2 were meant to get back to me yesterday. Typical workshop promises hey? I need to arrange the time & trailer plus hoist to be ready for when I pick engine up. All gotta work like clockwork. Literally!

Here's my massive stressful day ahead of me in next few days. Including a wonderful drive through the picturesque (NOT) suburbs of Melb :o

a) organise, pick up hire trailer (7x4 or 7x5)
b) pick up convertor from fab shop
c) pick up engine from Merc shop
d) pick up exercise bike for my wife :rolleyes: (as it's so far away)
e) bring it all back here & fit convertor to flywheel, then, in goes engine. I need hoist there waiting so I can get it of trailer & wack it in bay
f) take trailer & hoist back to hire shop

I can take hire gear back the next day, only after work on Sat though......as it looks as though I have to wait til' Friday to arrange this assault on my brain cells as we only have one car going @ moment & wifey has to use it today too :o

:o:o:o ha

NaughtyGT
22-02-2010, 05:57 AM
Decided to get the T03/4 pulled apart. Hopefully it'll only need bearings & seals. Dropped it off @ Wayne Mahnken Performance. Some may know of him here in Vic. He has been building severley competitive performance engines & specialising in Turbos for decades. Pulls no punches & treats you like a customer, not a number. Old School courtesy. Unlike the wank I got the engine from on Friday. Sleazy as! If I wasn't desperate would've walked away.

Anyway, he'll let me know if Turbo needs extra work like, shaft. Fingers crossed! Ran out of time for engine install Friday so, it goes in today. Will post a few pics & sigh of relief once it's in lol. Will attempt to contact an engineer here too to discuss about mods needed for cert' & what's necessary procedure etc :o

NaughtyGT
23-02-2010, 05:59 AM
well.............so much for install yesterday.........this Red Turd is now officially a "resurrection". I'm not confident this engine I got from Merc douche' is going to cut it turbocharged. Not the way it stands besides, one small detail I had overlooked. I need to tap a hole in block (yes, block as opposed to usual sump location) for Turbo drain. These engines take 6 Ltrs oil to fill so, sump line is too low so, out of question!

So, have it on trailer now as I type ready to be dropped off @ Gas Research Speky this morning. Getting him to tap the block as well as perform a leak-down test; compression test & general thumbs up/down answer on engine condition. Also need to discuss about custom ext' mani' but may leave that til' later on down track (very $$$$). He will also be able to set up plan & do some fabrication with LPG gaer whilst he has engine. hopefully Turbo will be rebuilt by the time engines ready to come back home for me to install & set up ext etc. I am re-fabing the dump pipe so it comes out @ 2 1/2" - 2 3/4" from turbine housing right to down pipe then into 3"

All good fun :o but necessary now not later!

NaughtyGT
24-02-2010, 06:16 AM
This project really looks like a long haul. Providing I get the thumbs up with engine condition, gotta bring engine back from shop, install prior to taking car over to have the LPG set up then, eventually get it back to sort engineering cert' out & get completed :o Alot of work for a car that was supposed to be running ey? Rusty's Sig.....another 20 are born?

Mad Mat
24-02-2010, 07:21 AM
tim its all good mate. :) these things happen 4 a reason :P at least now u know what is gone to her and that she's goin to be built strong. :)

NaughtyGT
24-02-2010, 07:56 AM
true. Sometimes seems the long way round is the only way :o Thanks Mat! :cool:

NaughtyGT
24-02-2010, 08:24 AM
Peter @ Swift auto (Gas Research/Performance Shop) is also looking @ if he can modify Inlet Mani' to allow better flow of LP vapour into runners when he sets up the twin convertors. This was the main prob with the old LPG set up on roo-ted engine that was running erratically lean as pointed out by Old Grey & matty88. Prob with this IM modification is there's really not the room to extend outwards the original IM where throttle body is located. The mixer will prolly have to go there still :confused:

NaughtyGT
13-03-2010, 05:51 AM
update:

2nd engine was worse than first! Oh shat :o so, still awaiting a good engine so I can get it in the car & get it to one of the LPG/Turbo specialists here in Melbourne. They need the car complete to fabricate inlet manifold; ext' manifold; fit gas convertors & mixer. Both shops do all fabrication jobs. Even mandrel bend aluminium :eek: IC plumbing; Ext Systems. The lot!

The Merc rabbit reckons he's found a 3rd engine done 150odd kms & will comp' test it. Was meant to get back to me Thursday :rolleyes: Prick! Anyway, he is doing me a deal with a rear screen. ((($577 from O'Briens :o))) It is a thick bastard safety glass. Whole car is built like a tank.

not much progress I'm afraid @ present. Bit boring but once engine is in, will move along pretty well then :cool:

NaughtyGT
15-03-2010, 04:56 AM
On a brighter note, I pulled all the timber dash/console parts off for sanding along with air vents; steering wheel (doing centre piece); door handle covers & few other dash pieces. Will be spraying them all in matching red (exterior paint) just to break up the aweful black leather interior. The black is unique for these cars (may have been dyed?) as they came out in bone or pale blue & perhaps maroon?

Problem is it's way too much black :eek: Reminds me of the R/T Charger I owned. Red with black interior. Get away with it for a retro car lke the HQ Monaro's etc but not now imo. Bit drab :o If I break it up with some tasteful, discrete red tone here & there, hopefully look sic :cool:

Also will proly go for black accent in the wheels. I need to get it mobile though as wheel fitment is obscure. The wheels on car are 18x8.5, which is the going size for replacement rims but tyres are stretched on the bead. Look stupid & can't see them riding real well. I need to fit some & see what offset is best after I replace stock springs that came with car. It's far too low for engineers cert that's for sure

I'll do a before/after with the painted interior bits. The timber pieces have thick lacquer on them that I just need to use course sandpaper first to get the heavy shine off so paint will stick.

NaughtyGT
25-03-2010, 10:00 AM
All interior parts finally painted/glossed. Will pop some pics up soon. Also, 2nd engine is being delivered tomorrow. If it passes comp test they will do leak-down test then. Spoke with Turbo repairer. It's ready to be picked up tomorrow. Just needed bearings & seals. $400. Just spoke also with pipe fabricator & he wants turbo tomorrow to begin making custom exhaust manifold & set up how the dump/down pipes will go. This all depends if engine arrives & gets the green light :o A lot of details. He needs the engine & turbo there to jig up & arrange everything. So, working in fine so far. At least he stated "I like a challenge" ;) Better than someone who doesn't give a crap about things. Told him I wanted equal-length runners & decent merge collector. He reckons he has the best MC going. Also he needs to modify the IM.

So, if engine comes up trumps this time. All good!

NaughtyGT
25-03-2010, 11:26 AM
Pics:

Here is the fibreglass boot cradle that covers subs & allows access to LPG tank

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERC%20RESSURECTION/BjPMrNB2kKGrHqMOKjsEsm1T2mL-BLSt12r.jpg

Here are the sub boxes & subs with cradle removed:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERC%20RESSURECTION/PICT0464.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERC%20RESSURECTION/PICT0466.jpg

Here is the rear screen out (was cracked right across length) & boot off for slight dent repair:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERC%20RESSURECTION/PICT0468.jpg

Here are the completed painted interior parts. All got 2 coats of Primer. 3 Coats of Red. 2 coats of Clear. Sanded using 240/360/600 & 1500 where/when necessary between coats:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERC%20RESSURECTION/PICT0470.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERC%20RESSURECTION/PICT0473.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERC%20RESSURECTION/PICT0474.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERC%20RESSURECTION/PICT0486.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERC%20RESSURECTION/PICT0479.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERC%20RESSURECTION/PICT0483.jpg

Here's some of the sound system gear I have to sort:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/MERC%20RESSURECTION/PICT0489.jpg

marcs_sp20
25-03-2010, 11:30 AM
so are you going to put the F/G boot install back in, as it kinda looks dodge without it :o

Clean_Cookie
25-03-2010, 11:33 AM
wow that red looks great! good job! i like the F/G looks very smooth/clean

NaughtyGT
25-03-2010, 11:35 AM
so are you going to put the F/G boot install back in, as it kinda looks dodge without it :o

yeah, that's why it isn't pretty Marc. Same as the fibreglass engine bay cover. They look purty so you can have crap looking gear underneath ;) The boxes are actually very practical with spray insulation & sealer used

NaughtyGT
25-03-2010, 11:36 AM
wow that red looks great! good job! i like the F/G looks very smooth/clean

thanks. The pics don't do justice really. They are better in real life. My camera doesn't like close ups :o

chicaboo
25-03-2010, 05:55 PM
That turned out better than I expected. Where are the centre air vents?

Gav.

NaughtyGT
25-03-2010, 09:22 PM
Thanks Gav. I took them out to originally paint the blades but, turns out too much hassle. I have to install them yet.

NaughtyGT
01-04-2010, 07:19 AM
2nd engine turned up with 1 cylinder low comp'. Fool never checked it prior to sending to workshop :mad: Now he has to send a 3rd engine. Failing this being OK, looking @ a rebuild which is a total pita! Only way I'll know the engine is sound. Even if I get an engine with good comp', nothings to say it doesn't need the timing belt/water pump/VRS put through it. If I do a rebuild, least I have the forgies still. Just becoming an expensive exercise to do right now instead of later.

This just puts the friggin 323 back & I want it up & running sooner than later as engine is a gem & I don't want it sitting around any longer. I manually run coolant & oil around it on the stand weekly but this doesn't ensure the tiny water galleries are getting flushed. Best I can do though.

chicaboo
01-04-2010, 09:27 AM
2JZ-GTTE! :p

NaughtyGT
01-04-2010, 01:10 PM
2JZ-GTTE! :p

You'd end up having to rebuild that too :eek: & the turbos :eek: Stuff imports I say :p

-dc-
01-04-2010, 01:35 PM
2JZ-GTTE! :p

Hell yeah, that would be one crazy conversion!

NaughtyGT
09-04-2010, 01:07 PM
well buggermedeadforloosinfaith! Looks like the Merc lads found me a good engine & sent it over to the workshop :eek: Boss is away for 2 weeks & secretary has been away til' today. Thought I'd ring to see what was going on :rolleyes:

Good compression. Now all I need is a leak-down test & we're away :cool: It was looking like a definite pulldown & rebuild job which would've put me financially on the ground right now :o As it is it's now my money pit :p :o :(

Hopefully have the OK early next week & I can get the lump of Liverwurst over to them on a towtray & outta my garage so I can move & work on the little GT bleeder :D Hopefully Fossy will have finished the work I've been getting him to do on the manifold/turbo etc

Just repaired a quarter panel on mums MX6 so I can use it and keep the coppers away. Just replacing the blinker switch & found the P/S pump is leaking somewhere. Well. It can get topped up each day for a while. Too hard to get to these on the V6's. Site right above the drivers-side drive shaft. Really need a break from working on cars for a while. At least rush jobs. No pleasure in that :(

-dc-
09-04-2010, 02:22 PM
good to hear its coming together and you have a suitable engine! hopefully this one works out well. I cant wait to see this thing running, it will be awesome. It looks like a really nice cruiser and it will have the power to back it up too.

Can you post some pics of the full exterior of the car I remember seeing some when you first picked it up, i think it was in the 'What have you done today' thread but I'm lazy and cant be bothered trawling through 1000's of posts to find them.

Cheers

NaughtyGT
09-04-2010, 06:20 PM
Can you post some pics of the full exterior of the car

Thanks dc. No probs: I'm lazy too lol. Here's the orig' ones from add. I didn't take any here @ home before I puuled bonnet, boot & rear screen out as I was so pissed @ the engine blown :o The wheels in pics that it came with won't be on it when it's finished. There gay as :p I have to wait till' Engineer as looked @ it before I look @ replacements

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/BjPMoFWkKGrHqMOKkMEsnPDO6pBLSt1bf7k.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/BjPMofQBGkKGrHqQOKkQEsnuUiQBLSt1esu.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/56660651.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/56660581.jpg

marcs_sp20
09-04-2010, 06:27 PM
I think they actually suit the car IMO...

NaughtyGT
09-04-2010, 06:46 PM
I think they actually suit the car IMO...

nah. Problem is Marc they are 8.5" wide & run 225/40's which are stretched so they fit under guards :o It really should be running 8's max. Then I could fit 245's & they'd sit nice on the rims. Most owners use wider rims on rear with different offset to front. It's a real pita actually to get it right with these unfortunately

NaughtyGT
12-04-2010, 09:11 AM
Just waiting on go-ahead with the auto trans. Apparently the stock trans will handle the power so just getting a thumbs up on the condition it's in. Looks good & was replaced in 2006 with bugger-all k's on it since then but you never know. Running gear utilises a split tail shaft with big-ass rubber block that has 6 bolts through it that connects to the rear of trans. It allows flexion for the box when tailshaft spins. Quite impressive.

Will also be speaking to workshop today to nut out ETA on getting the car over there & outta the flamin garage so I can move.

Going to celebrate on the day it goes over there I tell ya :)

Will hopefully know a few more things later today. Fingers crossed. With it out of the way I can get a good go @ the 323. Still sorting the cabin harness with Fosgate @ moment. Still a bit sticky going :o

Mums MX6 is going solid as a rock as a daily @ moment. Gee they're great cars for a stocky. I miss both my KLZE & DE I had. Both were 5 speeds. Mums is an auto. Good pick up funnily enough if you start off in OD & let it run through the gears naturally. Nice & smooth power response. I tried using OD off but it never seems to be any good unless you want to keep it @ around 60 for tight street suburb driving.

Maybe that's the way mum drove it all it's life? Still it's no ****ter ;)

NaughtyGT
15-04-2010, 07:09 AM
Crap! word back from trans specialist guy.......bands worn bad & burnt :eek: Full rebuild in order Sir......$1800. Shat-me-dead I exclaim back @ him :eek: Well, (he continues) that's pretty good for a Merc box! He's right too. You can pay big for these I found since surfing the WWW.

me thinks = abuse :mad: what mechanically hasn't been abused by this brutal liverwurst squasher? This Horse Radish sucking fiend :confused:

Thinking cap on again....:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: If I don't use humour about now. I'll shoot myself :o

NaughtyGT
15-04-2010, 10:01 AM
well........I need this thing outta my garage pronto! :mad:

I have spent $550 on the stally. Now, $1800 will go to having a rock-solid rebuilt Trans & $200 extra for a shift kit so auto will be a gem to drive & be able to perform well with the engine/turbo combo ;) The trans is a very important part of he drive chain. A link too often neglected. It's OK to have all the gee gee's in the world in the engine bay but if it can't be laid down efficiently to the road then the power is wasted or @ best limited. It will never be anything special to drive.

The custom steam pipe exhaust manifold will allow the turbo to run free & give nice street performance with minimal lag. This is what Gav & I want to do to the FWD turbos. Just the cost is a bit to consider unless you are going to definitely keep the car for a good while.

I just have to work extra day a week to put toward this project.

Gave the auto guy the go ahead. ETA is next Tuesday. Now I am awaiting engine guy to give me his report on the total engine condition. Not just the compression. Whether timing chain needs replacing soon. If it turns out the car is suffering mileage probs. Then it'll be stripped down for full rebuild hopefully using the forgies outta the orig' engine. Parts will be the $ problem but may not be too excessive. Guess this car will see me out for quite some years once it is completed. It will never be justified selling it after this.

The good thing is the look & build of the car that will always be a pleasure to own I guess.

BGSP
15-04-2010, 10:32 AM
Pretty project it's starting to become

NaughtyGT
15-04-2010, 10:44 AM
I just had to get over the insult of it being trashed due to pathetic workshop seller had used. I kinda got trapped with this car. Now I am starting to see it through for what it will be. Not what it is now. At least I guess I'll have peace of mind hopefully sooner than later

Clean_Cookie
15-04-2010, 05:13 PM
yay! well it will hopefully be a great car soon :)

BGSP
15-04-2010, 05:31 PM
Awesome, post some pics as you go along

NaughtyGT
15-04-2010, 10:51 PM
definately will do

NaughtyGT
23-04-2010, 02:45 PM
got the trans back today. In the garage looking nice & painted silver :D They didn't paint the sump pan though the slackers just overspray :p I'll wack a pic up later woo hoo. All you'll see is a painted box hehe but I like piccies & havn't taken any for too long lol

Still waiting for slack workshop to call back :( Not their biggest asset

Mad Mat
23-04-2010, 02:51 PM
good to here that box is all good mate. :D

chicaboo
23-04-2010, 02:52 PM
Good to hear that the wife hasn't killed you yet. :p

NaughtyGT
23-04-2010, 04:08 PM
she aint' happy :o I'm in the dog-house @ moment. It's bloody cold too :D I think she may disown me before long

BGSP
23-04-2010, 05:43 PM
Quick buy her something nice to compensate :P

NaughtyGT
23-04-2010, 08:37 PM
Quick buy her something nice to compensate :P

hehe will have to bring a pressie home from work tomorrow ;)

BGSP
23-04-2010, 08:44 PM
Good on ya :D

NaughtyGT
30-04-2010, 07:47 AM
A breakthrough bit of info for me. Apparently the Merc trans is the same they used for the V12's & will take a decent pounding :cool: This makes the rebild all worth while. You gotta look @ the little things sometimes I guess :o

Now if the slack rebuilder would bother to contact me about the engine sitting on the floor of his workshop :eek: In the meantime still awaiting quote for engine parts from US to decide whether I can save being ripped off over here.

Noones in a hurry down in lower Vic :rolleyes:

Mad Mat
30-04-2010, 08:37 AM
A breakthrough bit of info for me. Apparently the Merc trans is the same they used for the V12's & will take a decent pounding :cool: This makes the rebild all worth while. You gotta look @ the little things sometimes I guess :o

Now if the slack rebuilder would bother to contact me about the engine sitting on the floor of his workshop :eek: In the meantime still awaiting quote for engine parts from US to decide whether I can save being ripped off over here.

Noones in a hurry down in lower Vic :rolleyes:

hell yer mate :D

u need a strong trans to handle the power of that best :P

what power u looking at making????? and what ecu u using???

(sorry if this has been asked before :p)

NaughtyGT
30-04-2010, 09:18 AM
hell yer mate :D

u need a strong trans to handle the power of that best :P

what power u looking at making????? and what ecu u using???

(sorry if this has been asked before :p)

Mat. It isn't as simple with this or perhaps it's simpler? Although it has an ECU it used mechanical injection. This means you just bypass it pretty much. With the LPG conversion. You bypass it altogether. In this case. When the LPG & turbo was initially installed they chose to use MSD gear. MSD ignition & timing computer to sort the AFM & fuel mapping etc.

What my workshop has to do is reconfigure the LPG set up entirely. Larger lines. Larger gas jets. Dual convertors (vapourisers). Modify the Inlet manifold. Custom build an exhaust manifold. Refurbish the IC piping to alum' mandrel bends. New 3" mandrel ext' sys all way through.

Looking @ 350-400rwhp with the Garrett T03/4 hybrid. Don't want the "big-turbo" lag blues....

I have to nut this out though when time to tune comes. Unlike what you will be doing with petrol dyno (getting mapping etc sorted out) with LPG it's much more straight forward to get the AFM right anyway. The difficulty with LPG is supplying enough of it to all cylinders & keeping it supplied through rev-ranges. No room for error with this. All fun :)

P.S. my workshop boss aint to keen on the > 300whp I want hehe

NaughtyGT
30-04-2010, 11:12 AM
Decision made! Rebuilding the M103 engine & seeing whether the forgies from buggered engine are worth using?

Here's to the money pit :rolleyes:

Mad Mat
30-04-2010, 11:39 AM
yay :D

can i thro some stuff in the pit too :P

NaughtyGT
30-04-2010, 08:37 PM
yay :D

can i thro some stuff in the pit too :P

money :p

truth is rebuilder didn't really wanna mess with a 2nd hand engine. Setting up all the gear & then having it crap itself down the highway one day. He cautioned me about doing the head up (valve seals etc) only for the old rings to be pushed too far as they'd already be a bit tired.

I'll just have to do over a bank down here that's all :D

tbo, I don't want it letting me down when I'm on my way to Sydney or something. Not choice! :(

NaughtyGT
10-05-2010, 08:46 AM
Got back on an AUS/NZ Merc Forum I joined in Feb. Forgot about it lol. They are sponsored by a Merc Spares Shop :D Yeehar.

Hopefully no need to go to US for parts. Prices will be the killer. Anyway. US is supposed to be getting back to me today with quote (yeah whateva) so then I can compare the two quotes & make a decision.

Some guy here tried to get big HP out of one of these engines like mine using twin turbo set up from TurboTechnics & apparently failed :o Good to know. Thing is. In US they have done it successfully on low boost.

Also, apparently the bores have some fancy metallergy happening with cylinders which allows the cylinders to last in excess of 500K, before pulling down. Hence the amazing mileage of these engines.

What this amounts to is hopefully I can get away with rings & bearings & not touch the bore. Blocks aren't meant to be bored due to what I just wrote concerning metallergy process.

Will be speaking to workshop this morning & I will know what will be happening one way or another with engine & hopefully have some prices to go on.

It seems that every time someone tries to modify these engines. They stuff them. That's why they simply use good 2nd hand engines to begin with. Mine is from a wreckers hehe :(

Fingers crossed!

so fresh
10-05-2010, 08:52 AM
The wheels in pics that it came with won't be on it when it's finished. There gay as :p I have to wait till' Engineer as looked @ it before I look @ replacements
http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/BjPMoFWkKGrHqMOKkMEsnPDO6pBLSt1bf7k.jpg

can i buy the rims off you if you get them replaced?:D
i like vx1's/look alike's.

NaughtyGT
10-05-2010, 09:45 AM
can i buy the rims off you if you get them replaced?:D
i like vx1's/look alike's.

haha Fresh......don't think they'll fit lol. Prob' is not so much the look of them as they are 8 1/2 - 9" wide. I wnat them narrower to better fit tyres & not scrub the guards. the 300E is a medium Merc & track isn't that wide unfortunately :o

I still have the 3 off the BF323. If you remember them from when I picked up Naughty? You just need to source a 4th & they're yours ;)

Mad Mat
10-05-2010, 10:35 AM
haha Fresh......don't think they'll fit lol. Prob' is not so much the look of them as they are 8 1/2 - 9" wide. I wnat them narrower to better fit tyres & not scrub the guards. the 300E is a medium Merc & track isn't that wide unfortunately :o

I still have the 3 off the BF323. If you remember them from when I picked up Naughty? You just need to source a 4th & they're yours ;)

the bf is a 4 stud so i don't think they fit on the sp20 as they area 5 stud. :(

NaughtyGT
10-05-2010, 11:02 AM
the bf is a 4 stud so i don't think they fit on the sp20 as they area 5 stud. :(

I think Fresh was wishful thinking Mat lol. I have a 4 stud 15" set that came originally on the 323. If anyone can source 1 from somewhere Fresh can have my 3. That's what I meant ;) oh.....see what you mean. I meant the Panda Astina Fresh has. Not the SP20 Mat

Mad Mat
10-05-2010, 01:43 PM
bahahahaha panda hee hee....

NaughtyGT
11-05-2010, 11:40 AM
ah man......:eek: the sausage sager continues :( As I suspected a few weeks back when discussing fate of the 2nd hand engine that's going into car. It was never delivered :eek: The workshop secretary got it wrong. Boss was away having surgery (no idea what) just prior to Easter weekend. When I phoned & asked "are you sure the 3rd engine had been dropped off" she replied " Yes! Sure.

Turns out after talking this morning to boss. The 3 engines she had noted included my old roo-ted one :o So, this explains the boss wanting to pull down engine when I had asked him weeks ago if it would need it or not. Because the engine he was noting had one cylinder down on compression. He didn't want to do the head up & refit it knowing the bottom end was tired. See?

Thank the Father of Light boss had'nt begun stripping engine! :eek:

Quick call to Abdul (Merc Spares). "Um.....Abdul mate.....you never dropped off the freikin 3rd engine." "You know?......the one with GOOD compression maaaate!" .....Abdul "you stll going with the engine?"....Me "er....yeah!:eek:....you never delivered a good one!

End of conversation with Abdul goes.....Me "so, I-want-a-good-engine! Complete! Clutch fan the lot!!!!" Abdul "so you are pulling down engine?"
Me "nOOOOO! I-want-an-angine-WITH-good-compression!.....you don't rebuild Merc engines!......blocks have special metallergy performed so they last loooong time! You should know this! Not many people successfully rebuild these engines due to special cylinder surface method. When they're dead. They're dead. OK!" Abdul "k! wil ring you after lunch. Leave it with me! ;)".....Me "k"

So I wait...................:D:o

chicaboo
11-05-2010, 11:47 AM
All I read then was "knobs knobs knobs..." :(

marcs_sp20
11-05-2010, 11:48 AM
All I read then was "knobs knobs knobs..." :(

x2, how could they just get this wrong :(

NaughtyGT
11-05-2010, 11:50 AM
unflaminbelievable :mad: Thing is I knew it in backof my mind. Why would you be keen to tear down a good engine? Just lies & puttin' me off :(

NaughtyGT
11-05-2010, 11:58 AM
If I wasn't so reliant on this Gas Research workshop to get the set up right. I would go somewhere else. I have to keep in mind the end result. They are the best so.....whatta ya do? Car has had enough cowboys working on it

Mad Mat
11-05-2010, 01:52 PM
x2, how could they just get this wrong :(

man that just makes me sick. :(

hope it goes well mate...

NaughtyGT
11-05-2010, 02:26 PM
thanks Mat. I still can't believe it. I know it'll all work out in the end. Just pisses me off these things happen due to circumstances you have no control over. I always work on my cars due to this sort of stuff but the Merc's a little different. Have to let it play through

BGSP
11-05-2010, 04:42 PM
Good luck, I got joshed around when I had my AE92 SX, it took four engines for the place to get it right. All the best bud

NaughtyGT
11-05-2010, 05:34 PM
Could someone pls photoshop this. Much appreciated ;) Taken a long time to find a wheel to set the Merc off the way I want & use the near new tyres off the current ones

Here is a converted pic to better show the wheel:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/BSUgvEgBWkKGrHgoOKjcEa.jpg

Here is the wheel for photoshop use if it is better?

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/2904339767076464.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/56660581.jpg

Evilist
11-05-2010, 06:06 PM
Could someone pls photoshop this. Much appreciated ;) Taken a long time to find a wheel to set the Merc off the way I want & use the near new tyres off the current ones

Here is a converted pic to better show the wheel:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/BSUgvEgBWkKGrHgoOKjcEa.jpg

Here is the wheel for photoshop use if it is better?

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/2904339767076464.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/56660581.jpg

If you can find a pic of them on a car, with around the same angle as your merc, i'll do it for ya ;) otherwise it will just look wrong

Drakh
12-05-2010, 06:16 AM
Hey naughty

been keeping an eye on this thread for a while now- makes for interesting reading- even tho u are having a bit of a hard time with it.
I saw u said u were perhaps getting some parts from over here in NZ and I just remembered theres a merc wrecker just down the rd from me

If you really really really needed something I could go down and have a look round for ya...

NaughtyGT
12-05-2010, 06:27 AM
If you can find a pic of them on a car, with around the same angle as your merc, i'll do it for ya ;) otherwise it will just look wrong

thanks. this will be almost impossible. Will try & find one when I get home from work. Thanks for offer :cool:

Hey naughty

been keeping an eye on this thread for a while now- makes for interesting reading- even tho u are having a bit of a hard time with it.
I saw u said u were perhaps getting some parts from over here in NZ and I just remembered theres a merc wrecker just down the rd from me

If you really really really needed something I could go down and have a look round for ya...

thanks Drakh. I am tied up with this spares guy concerning engine @ moment. He already has my money so unfortunately I'm not @ liberty to move too much with him. I have to sit it out for now. Most stuff I will prolly have to replace new concerning LPG, engine/turbo/exhaust set up.

Will definately remember the offer if something arises though. Younever know with this project. Thanks heaps :)

mynameisdaniel
12-05-2010, 01:39 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/258s49g.jpg

Quick photoshop, not proud of it lol

Mad Mat
12-05-2010, 03:56 PM
mate. quick question 4 u.... is the 450c merc with the v8 engine made from the same metal as ur block????

my mate just bought and restorded one and it has MACHANICAL fuel injection :eek:

NaughtyGT
12-05-2010, 04:42 PM
http://i41.tinypic.com/258s49g.jpg

Quick photoshop, not proud of it lol

thanks heaps daniel ;)

mate. quick question 4 u.... is the 450c merc with the v8 engine made from the same metal as ur block????

my mate just bought and restorded one and it has MACHANICAL fuel injection :eek:

Mat. I'd have to ask on forums as I have no idea about the V8 engine composition. The early 6's had a special metallurgical process applied to the engine block cylinder linings so boring cylinders out is not advisable.

Early W124 model (83' - 91'?) Mercs had mechanical injection but also an ECU however, pretty basic. This is what made this model so reliable. No bull**** sensors I guess to play up although I think it has an 02 sensor?

Cosmo Dude
12-05-2010, 06:05 PM
mate. quick question 4 u.... is the 450c merc with the v8 engine made from the same metal as ur block????

my mate just bought and restorded one and it has MACHANICAL fuel injection :eek:

Back in the 70's merc started using Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection which dispite the 'tronic' in the name, is based on a fuel pressure proportoning valve operated by the amount of incoming air, not electronics. The models suffixed in 'E' (I.E. 280E) have electronic lambda correction with an O2 sensor.
K-Jet works very well and normally were tuned to allow 80% power increase without tuning the fuel system, which is good because when they need tuning it's like black magic and it's better to hire a wizard than a mechanic.

NaughtyGT
12-05-2010, 06:20 PM
Back in the 70's merc started using Bosch K-Jetronic fuel injection which dispite the 'tronic' in the name, is based on a fuel pressure proportoning valve operated by the amount of incoming air, not electronics. The models suffixed in 'E' (I.E. 280E) have electronic lambda correction with an O2 sensor.
K-Jet works very well and normally were tuned to allow 80% power increase without tuning the fuel system, which is good because when they need tuning it's like black magic and it's better to hire a wizard than a mechanic.

Spot n Cosmo ;) Explained well. Mat. Similarly. The Porsche 924/944 also had mechanical injection from the 70's. Quite basic yet efficient for their time. Instead of MPFI leads etc, the injectors were connected to rubber leads. Just like spark plug leads. Again. This is why they were so reliable.

Here's a link with nit all explained concerning the Mercs. Injection was actually first used from the 60's :eek: Actually, other cars that used the K-Jetronic injection were Volvo, Audi, Saab, BMW, Ferrari, Rolls Royce Bentley, Lotus, Renault, Delorean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jetronic

Here's a pics of the K-Jetronic set up Cosmo was referring to:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/epumpplatform.jpg

Here's a Ferrari with the K-jetronic injection. You can see how the steel tubing differs from the EFI wire leads. This is same for the Mercs:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/1984-ferrari-testarossa-10_460x0w2.jpg

Cosmo Dude
12-05-2010, 06:45 PM
Yeah but one of the first Bosch system was D-Jetronic back in the Porsche 914s but most of those had the fuel injection replaced with DCOE Webers. Now we call it MAP and the sensors are reliable, full points for trying though.
For the young'ns back before the internet there were things called books and I've got some very good ones on fuel injection. Most EFI systems are based on either D-Jetronic, L-Jetronic or Motronic Bosch systems. I'd think that K-Jet died out with the VW Kombies and hasn't been used in twenty five years.

NaughtyGT
12-05-2010, 07:11 PM
Yeah but one of the first Bosch system was D-Jetronic back in the Porsche 914s but most of those had the fuel injection replaced with DCOE Webers. Now we call it MAP and the sensors are reliable, full points for trying though.
For the young'ns back before the internet there were things called books and I've got some very good ones on fuel injection. Most EFI systems are based on either D-Jetronic, L-Jetronic or Motronic Bosch systems. I'd think that K-Jet died out with the VW Kombies and hasn't been used in twenty five years.

the D-Jetronic (Analog fuel injection) was in the 60's Mercs as well Cosmo ;) With Mercs K-Jet was called CIS "continuous injection system" I think I recall? Mid to late 300E's used the KE-Jetronic (Electronically-controlled mechanical fuel injection) with an ECU as with my model. Just to confuse the issue haha. The K-Jetronic first appeared in the Porsche 911

NaughtyGT
12-05-2010, 09:15 PM
not looking good I don't think Mat?..........these engines are made quite out of the ordinary. Reminds me of the V8 BMW's that you can only run 98RON in them all they'll be eaten away :eek: Serious! That's why I reniged on buying one prior to the Merc. Look @ this very interesting & informative link below:

http://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5386

NaughtyGT
13-05-2010, 08:11 AM
Mat. After reading this link & searching google I think the Merc V8 engines were all special alloy construction. So, if your friends' is alloy then the bores are fashioned using 'nikasil' process.

This just confuses me as the steel 6 cylinder blocks as the one in my car also have a similar process :confused:

Bottom line is. Although these engines possibly can be rebuilt. They have to be done by an expert & not any old shop. Judging by the mess the previous owners mechanic/rebuilder made of the engine in mine. I wouldn't try it! :eek:

NaughtyGT
13-05-2010, 01:14 PM
as the sager unfolds......Abdul (Merc Spares yard) has found yet another motor. In a car. Will pully it Monday....more like later lol.....& has assured me (yet again) he WILL check this engines compression prior Here's hoping! :D:):o:(:confused:

Mat I'll PM you this but here it is anyway if anyone else is interested? Concerning the different alloy composition of engines.


http://ozbenz.net/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=5386

Mad Mat
13-05-2010, 02:04 PM
yay new engine :D :D :D

thanks 4 all the info too tim

ur the bomb.

NaughtyGT
14-05-2010, 07:28 AM
yay new engine :D :D :D

thanks 4 all the info too tim

ur the bomb.

pleasure Mat! I'm learning through it all so. All good :)

Turns out this over-eager to elp moderator of Aussie forum got it wrong concerning the straight 6 Merc engines :rolleyes: While it is correct concerning the alloy V8's & later alloy engines. Mine is a normal cast iron block with no special process to cylinders. Just shows the importance of researching performance forums when asking performance questions ;) He did however explain the danger in reboring blocks

Here is what he wrote

"Mercedes blocks re-machine Inline 6 DATSUN torque plates to work with the m103 and m104 engines. A torque plate is used to simulate the head bolted to block so the bores become perfectly straight. With out one the bores can taper up to .002"

NaughtyGT
21-05-2010, 09:44 AM
PROGRESS!!!!!!!!

Have today off (miracle lately for the slave hehe)

Spoke to Abdul (Merc spares). After waiting yet again for entire week with no return call or engine. Demanded he tell me whether or not he has an engine. NOW! He said he has a running car come in. Well. Better than an engine sitting in the yard out of some crapper 6 months ago! Demanded he do a compression test. NOW! Reminding him it will only be done by my mechanic soon as he gets it! He said OK! So, then he said he'll ring my @ lunchtime & let me know figures. I said you better as I'm wearing thin with the patience lesson :mad:

SO. Here's hoping on a star! A German star haha :(

If I can land an engine with good compression. At least the bores will be good to rebuild. I'm not settling for risk of buggered bores & have to buy new (expensive) pistons. Besides. Then I can use the forgies if they are standard bore size? At least an option.

Eve though my mechanic will do a comp' test himself. Still a chance that everything will be in better maintained condition & a good, solid platform to work from ;) I also can get genuine parts heavily discounted from a Merc spares retailer that provides discount to forum members. Here in Aussieland. Canberra. Even found their actual website Forum :eek:

Here's hoping.....hoping......hoping :o

chicaboo
21-05-2010, 09:50 AM
If you can't get a good engine, why can't you just sleeve it? That's not a huge cost up here compared to getting a re-bore done.

NaughtyGT
21-05-2010, 10:18 AM
If you can't get a good engine, why can't you just sleeve it? That's not a huge cost up here compared to getting a re-bore done.

Hey Gav :)

A rebores outta the question @ this stage due to cost of pistons. The rebore would need special adapter plate be machined up from another car with similar bore size like a Nissan, to ensure straight boring. Sleeving would also be a last resort.

You can get a tougher set of rings which wear better for these engines apparently. Not sure about here though.

Point is I paid $2k for an engine not to have to bore it out but to get away with honing so all I need is rings, bearings bla bla. The bottom ends on these engines are the best. It's the heads that are problematic. The water jackets are close to the oil galleries so the original head gaskets were prone to fail. Aftermarket Ruise? ones are better & will last for a good 200K if coolant system & oil changes are maintained properly ;) Even special Merc coolant so parts don't wear. The engines actually do overheat due to clutch fan not engaging until 105C :eek: Obviously you just get a better fan set up etc.

I'm learning shat loads from the Merc Forums. I really felt like giving up this week & put car in garage indefinitely due to the expense & bullcrap! But then all the other parts of car will just get dry & bugger up eventually costing me too much :(

I know you can get late model Mercs. Really good ones for friggin cheap but this is a project & that's that I guess

NaughtyGT
24-05-2010, 03:40 PM
:eek:

Just got off phone to Merc Spares here in Melbourne. No go. Compression on 3rd engine was a pathetic 130 on all......so, will be dropping the 2 engines back to spares yard for a refund. Here I go again.

At least I'll have my money back from this horrid spares dealer. Never to contact him again! :mad:

Where I go from here who knows? I may even shelve the project indefinitely until I find a solid engine to use. May even look @ a possible upgrade?

Just need time out consider options :o

This has already been one hellova ride lol

Mad Mat
24-05-2010, 05:30 PM
what engine is it???? i might be able to sorce one here???? i know some one who has 2 mercs that are goin to the yard anyway.... if the engines are the same we can test them and see if there anygood :)

NaughtyGT
24-05-2010, 06:03 PM
what engine is it???? i might be able to sorce one here???? i know some one who has 2 mercs that are goin to the yard anyway.... if the engines are the same we can test them and see if there anygood :)

Hey Mat. Unless it had really good compression figures on all pots (170+) & preferably had the head, water pump, timing gear done in recent years @ reputable shop with OEM parts. It would only be good for a rebuild which shouldn't be that hard to find.

Engine I need is a straight six. A 3.0L M103 12V to suit W124 300E model (83' - 95'). The M104 (24Valve) engine came out in about 90' & would do but I'd have to modify for different mounts & lines etc. The V6 is no go. Use a different trans.

Problem I had was I'd already payed +2k for the engine from Merc Spares. Not couple of hundred. Else I would be rebuilding now.

If it has good compression though & not the other gear recently done. Still would be OK for a rebuild. There was 1 up in QLD the other day with recent engine work but too far to organise @ the price they wanted.

Mad Mat
24-05-2010, 06:05 PM
no worries i'll ask mate. :)

NaughtyGT
24-05-2010, 06:29 PM
no worries i'll ask mate. :)

Legend :cool:

BGSP
24-05-2010, 08:38 PM
Have you tried Euro spares, they're Australia wide, they generally have good stuff and they import if need be.

NaughtyGT
24-05-2010, 10:51 PM
Have you tried Euro spares, they're Australia wide, they generally have good stuff and they import if need be.

Thanks BGSP! I did contact a lead given me by a IC parts rep when I was shopping @ Autobarn. Supposed to deal in Performance Merc engines etc. Never returned my call :o

I will try these guys you mention though. First I just need to get rid of this Merc guy who has mucked me around for months with these engines. Was just bad luck.

Thanks guys for your support. Really appreciated. I've just got to work this thing through best way I can

BGSP
25-05-2010, 10:35 PM
No worries man, glad I could help

NaughtyGT
28-05-2010, 06:12 AM
Returned crap engines to wrecking yard Wednesday. They will be refunding me $2100 via CC (hopefully in today?)

So. After frig around with wreckers (90mins away from me) since February. Frig around with 'all too busy for little ol' me' LPG workshop (some 40 mins away from me). Decided to do the custom work on Merc myself & employ workshop (12mins away) for all fabrication/turbo custom work. They also are a LPG performance workshop & do all manner of fabrication work.

I can't warrant the workshop expenses to customise an old car to the extent I have to. No matter how good condition & greatness bla bla. Although it will take forever & a day. This will afford me the time/money needed to do the thing properly & the first time a success! Even though I am way way over my head. STIFF haha!

So far as it stands

I can get a SOHC engine right now. Same as original for $950+ delivery via Sydney warehouse. DOHC for $1500+. However, from what I gather from Merc forum members the SOHC engine is stronger so the extra cost doesn't seem worth it @ this stage.

Also am considering dropping the single turbo set up & opting the more common twin TC set up.

This will allow me to ditch the exorbitant costing custom exhaust manifold I was going ahead with to make proper use of the single turbo set up.

Why this route?

The original exhaust manifold is in 2 sections. Twin triple pipes with their own downpipe housings that together join into 1 pipe underneath car. Very like the Jag straight sixes. Mercedes offered a Mossleman twin FI set up standard to fit these. Offered by dealerships to new car buyers in the 80's. Turbotechnics also offered a twin set up too. So there is info I can get my hands on on forums.

This way I do away with costly manifold & workshop labour etc & am able to muck around myself with it. Well over my head but I need to save labour costs & infuse this into the actual car modifications. Besides. I can pop up to Mornington (12 mins away) & have anything whatsoever (pipework, turbo stuff) fabricated as I need it.

Here's a pic of the manifold set up on a stock 3.0L:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/rebuild1.jpg

Only horrid things I note in me doing this is fabricating/setting up all the gear such as the oil lines etc to join the 2 turboes together bla bla. I don't see the tuning being too badthough as it will be the same as with 1?

The inlet manifold on the other hand will be a doozy when fabricating it to suit the LPG Mixer.

I may purchase a donor car. Remove engine for rebuild & this way I have a whole car to use as a huge template. A twin if you will hehe. They come up cheap as on EBay all the time. This will make it easier for me to work on it by myself. Saving me money in the long run & giving me a car to sell stuff off & recoup some doe @ the end.

Just need the 323GT done & out of the garage so I can park it beside the project.

Clean_Cookie
28-05-2010, 07:40 AM
damn big changesahead! good luck with it all its been good to see how simple something can be and.how difficult people make it....

NaughtyGT
28-05-2010, 08:10 AM
damn big changesahead! good luck with it all its been good to see how simple something can be and.how difficult people make it....

Yeah. Exactly. Unbelievable balls up. Previous owner hadn't a clew what he was doing. Upside is it is a nice example of an old classic in great nick. Just alot of TLC needed now though.

Just thinking about the stock twin manifold set up from the pic (above posts). You would have to bring each turbo up & forward. There may be a little issue with the front one keeping it under the bonnet line enough to keep heat away. May have to line bonnet with heat proof material. Also. Tyhe exhaust no doubt will be a doozy to fit :confused:

Well. This is advice I've asked froma US member who has the TurboTechnics kit on his. Just gotta wait his reply. I'll put some pics up hopefully of the twin set up. May be very interesting?

NaughtyGT
28-05-2010, 08:40 AM
Well phluck me deady.....have found an engine from an importer. Still in car. 180psi each pot. 124k's on it :eek::eek::eek: That's almost as new for these!

If I give em the go-ahead. Will be ready to ship Wednesday! Has anyone heard of/dealt with these guys?

Parramatta Prestige in Sydney??????

Think I'll go with it. There is only 1 engine :eek:

This will mean I can use the engine AS IS......maybe the timing gear etc has recently been done? Comes complete with manifolds, pulleys. The lot!

NaughtyGT
28-05-2010, 09:13 AM
Just bought it! Too good to gin around with it. Arriving Wednesday! Looks like I have the day off hehe :p

Now I can start to prepare stuff in my head for the build :cool:

Definitely be taking a pic soon as it arrives so I can scrap book it for future memory of when it all started to come together hehe

What I'm so rapped with is engine was still in 90 model pristine low klm car @ point of conversation (still is now) so compression readings are genuine.

RustyKaos
28-05-2010, 01:29 PM
Congratulations on the find. I hope it all goes well from now.

-dc-
28-05-2010, 02:12 PM
Well phluck me deady.....have found an engine from an importer. Still in car. 180psi each pot. 124k's on it :eek::eek::eek: That's almost as new for these!

If I give em the go-ahead. Will be ready to ship Wednesday! Has anyone heard of/dealt with these guys?

Parramatta Prestige in Sydney??????

Think I'll go with it. There is only 1 engine :eek:

This will mean I can use the engine AS IS......maybe the timing gear etc has recently been done? Comes complete with manifolds, pulleys. The lot!


Awesome, goodluck with this engine. ive never dealt with them as iv never owned a prestige euro but they are located only about 10 mins away from my place. Just near my mates workshop.

BGSP
28-05-2010, 03:48 PM
Epic man, good luck. You've earned this one.

NaughtyGT
29-05-2010, 05:14 AM
Thanks guys. I really needed a break & now I can see the light @ the end of the tunnel so to speak.

I'm considering putting it all together. Getting LPG set up done & taming it to about 7psi tops. Just to have it together. Worry about the real power gains later down track. Least than the workshop stuff will all be done & car driveable

chicaboo
29-05-2010, 10:35 AM
7psi? Another reason for 2 small Garret BB turbos. :p

NaughtyGT
29-05-2010, 10:07 PM
7psi? Another reason for 2 small Garret BB turbos. :p


It's a standard engine Gav :o 7psi is poof. Yes. But it will guarantee I get home from Maccas :D Bottom end might handle 650HP :eek: but the poor head gasket will be hard pressed to get to 400 without letting the oil mix with the coolant :D hehe. When I want 400kw (hehe) then I'll use the $1500 worth of forgies I've kept ;) Gee I miss the lil' GT wheelspin & torque steer :D

For now though. I just want the LPG/turbo set up done. Can always remove/replace later once all the fabrication is done :cool:

NaughtyGT
31-05-2010, 07:33 AM
For anyone who may be interested. Here's some pics from a US members car (basically identical to mine) that has the TurboTechnics twin turbo kit installed a few years ago:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/300CEDYNO010.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/300CEDYNO006.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/TTCM20-1.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/300CEDYNO009.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/TTCM21.jpg

NaughtyGT
31-05-2010, 09:09 AM
F-i-n-a-l-l-y.........the slauwsersausage goes over to a new performance workshop for engine & box install & then the LPG fit out & custom fabricating etc :D

Engine will be delivered to them directly from Sydney on Weds. Car goes over probably Tues week. Then. They start! :eek: Someone is actually going to start work on the burgermyster soon :eek:

Couldn't be stuffed fitting engine myself after all the bull****e. Rather just work more & get someone else to do it. Fact is I could've only fitted engine. From there. The custom exhaust mani has to be built. The inlet mani modified. LPG fully refitted out. New exhaust fitted. what's the point? Save money yes but have to take time off work & what a headache hiring gear again etc. Rather muck around with the 323 myself & leave the Liverwurst sandwich to the experts ;)

Oh yeah. New workshop is only 12 mins away from me so I can liase with them quickly & easily. The orig' workshop was like 40 mins away & they didn't want job. They only interested in Monaro's, Ford hardtops & drag racing. Splitters!

Here's some pics of the single turbo set up on a similar car with stock 300TD (turbo diesel) ext' manifold fitted:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/IMAG0241.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/IMAG0243.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/W140_35L_manifold.jpg

This is more like the one I'm getting made up :D:

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/untitledmm.jpg

BGSP
31-05-2010, 03:46 PM
Nniiccee

Mad Mat
09-06-2010, 06:23 AM
hey hows everything goin man???

heee heee so when u crusin up to brisbane ;)

NaughtyGT
09-06-2010, 07:02 AM
hey hows everything goin man???

heee heee so when u crusin up to brisbane ;)

Hey Mat :cool: Workshop isn't ready for it yet. Another few weeks it looks like before I can take it over but when they start it, it will be all go :) No stuffin round they guarentee. They just have to finish anoher turbo fab job then.....yeehar :p

They need the car before they can do squat. They won't fabricate the exhaust manifold for turbo without the car for measurements. Then I guess they'll be looking @ the inlet manifold. Modifying it to allow better flow for LPG (big issue). Then they can get down to the serious hooking up of all the gear. Be @ workshop for a bit of time I think :o

I really should be putting engine/trans in myself but sparing the time/energy to do it. Rather work extra hrs & pay to get done bugger it. I got enough to do with the 323 when I get my turbo gear back from Sydney. Let the experts have the Messerschmidt hehe unless they can lend me a hoist & ute lol (like that'll happen)......cruisin to Brissie may be a chalenge for a long while due to work commitments (aka....money honey :D:()

Mad Mat
09-06-2010, 08:31 AM
well looks like ur all set man..


well i think us qld members will have to cruise down there soon... that will be a good 5 day weekend ;)

NaughtyGT
09-06-2010, 12:11 PM
that'd be awesome :cool:

NaughtyGT
16-06-2010, 06:34 AM
I'm really getting annoyed with the waiting game workshop is expecting me to play. At least once they start it should be all go.

I'm ordering some parts through MB Spares today here in Aussieland hehe....so workshop aren't held up when car gets there. A new trans mount & tailshaft coupling for now so engine can go in. Hoses & lines will have to wait til' engine is in & I can do up a more diligent list. The custom exhaust manifold can't get started until engine is in bay & they can position turbo & measure everything up for fabrication. This manifold whilst expensive, it will allow exhaust gases to flow to turbine more efficiently & prevent turbulence resulting in more efficient (& quicker) spool time. I've toyed yesterday with possibility of using the manifold seller had on car or there is a stock turbo diesel manifold that can be used but it is such an important performance enhancement for such a heavy car I think I'll regret it if I don't get a proper customised manifold built. I'd rather schimp on something less important if I have to for now.

At this stage. Car should be heading over to workshop next week. Just waiting on workshop boys finishing another turbo build prior to commencing mine.

BGSP
16-06-2010, 02:32 PM
Epic, looks like the beast will soon awaken

Mad Mat
16-06-2010, 02:45 PM
Epic, looks like the beast will soon awaken

lol it will be like francinstine.........

ITS ALIVE MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

NaughtyGT
16-06-2010, 03:31 PM
lol it will be like francinstine.........

ITS ALIVE MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

haha.....pain in the arse for now though :p Big red rooter :cool:

NaughtyGT
20-06-2010, 02:19 AM
step back stage 2:::::::guys something awesome is brewing in the background.......a Perth member on a groovy US Merc forum that I been talking back & forward with has offered to help me rid the car of the original mechanical injection set up & switch it to EFI so I can run vapour injection :eek: This would mean horny-ass LPG direct injection set up, similar to liquid injection, only, you use original LPG tank & save changing to LPI tank & associated gear. Eliminating all the performance/reliability problems associated with old mixer set up :cool: You'd use Megasquirt probably to run the injection. EFI gear would be off an RB engine (skyline r32, 33, 34, gtr's and gts-t ect) apparently they have the same bore spacing & all you have to do is drill out inlet manifold injector holes so rb ones fit.......

He's letting me know the drill when I get home from work this arvo & I'll post the nitty gritty I find out then......will also be talking with workshop face-to-face in morning!

This could just be the set up I've been hoping for & allow me to move on from all the drama of this project getting off the ground! Would prolly mean a different workshop for the vapour set up. This would also eliminate having to custom make an inlet manifold to ensure mixer flows gas to all cylinders evenly.

Here's a peek @ similar mods from a different forum I'm also with: http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w201-190-class/1447419-m103-efi-kit-any-interest.html

Here's another similar set up with basic parts that are supplied: http://www.megagas.com.au/main_pages/Sequential.html

P.S. this project may be heading towards awesomeness status (going broke staus too:rolleyes:).....or.....pita status :p.....but at least not failure status as it was sorta heading :o means I'll rolly bring engine home. Fit it. Track down RB gear & start all over.......

My only other alternative is look @ swapping car back to petrol which although saving money (always good), ends the excitement part of the project. The other obvious thing to consider is the fact car is already converted to gas & it is an economical option in the long run. Just that the vapour injection is expensive to set up........hmmmmmmmmm

Mad Mat
20-06-2010, 09:44 AM
thats the same basic set put i'm building 4 my lada intake system....... except i'm using a ford manifold and a 70 mm throttle body, with a haltech fuel only computer and a nice set of 440cc injectors :)

this is goin to get scary man. but i can't wait to see her finished :). making this ype of gear is so much fun. :D

i really wish i live'd in vic now to to see this 4 real :( sad panda

NaughtyGT
20-06-2010, 04:18 PM
thats the same basic set put i'm building 4 my lada intake system....... except i'm using a ford manifold and a 70 mm throttle body, with a haltech fuel only computer and a nice set of 440cc injectors :)

this is goin to get scary man. but i can't wait to see her finished :). making this ype of gear is so much fun. :D

i really wish i live'd in vic now to to see this 4 real :( sad panda

Mat. I need to decide tomorrow after talking to workshop whether I put it back to petrol or stay with the LPG? Which ever way. I'm going EFI.....haha :D

What stage are you on to with the 20? I'll have to dive into your project thread :)

Mad Mat
20-06-2010, 04:50 PM
Mat. I need to decide tomorrow after talking to workshop whether I put it back to petrol or stay with the LPG? Which ever way. I'm going EFI.....haha :D

What stage are you on to with the 20? I'll have to dive into your project thread :)

cool

i put eye lids on her thats about the best of it.... and some other goodies to :P

i'm lackin funds atm lol.

Clean_Cookie
20-06-2010, 07:11 PM
LPG DUDE! just becuase its different and awesomely cool, even if its lotsa $$$... and becuase the time youve spent in researching it all would be worth nothing in the end :(

NaughtyGT
20-06-2010, 07:24 PM
LPG DUDE! just becuase its different and awesomely cool, even if its lotsa $$$... and becuase the time youve spent in researching it all would be worth nothing in the end :(

tell me about it lol. Will have serious talk with workshop tomorrow. Really can't make a move forward til' this happens. I kinda think I'll be doing alot of basic install stuff myself & then start to locate Nissan r30 gear or similar then, the fun starts. If I have to I'm going to take a half day off each week just to source stuff. Will be sure to post up how it all goes tomorrow. Freikin feels like I'm going to a job interview. Real weird & @ the 11th hr & 59 mins it seems. Car was going to go over tomorrow :eek:

marcs_sp20
20-06-2010, 07:40 PM
LOL, this thread is hilarious, sorry Tim but you need to stick to something till the end!! :p

lets see this thing on the road already!! :D

NaughtyGT
21-06-2010, 04:11 AM
LOL, this thread is hilarious, sorry Tim but you need to stick to something till the end!! :p

lets see this thing on the road already!! :D

aint that easy Marc. This has never been successfully done before over here. I have nothing as a prototype. Just negative past stories cropping up @ times. If it takes a hundred changes along the way. But I get it right. Then it'll have all been worth it.

If I hurry it up because some workshop says "she'll be right mate"....we've done V8 turbos on LPG mixer....bla...bla...bla.... & it all goes bell up. I look the fool :o & have a roo-ted car again. V8's are easy using a carb/mixer as the inlet manifold sits atop between the heads & LPG merely has to fall (be sucked) evenly straight into head chambers. The 6 in the Merc has inlet manifold aside & under the head & all runners are different lengths. The only way I see of successfully using a mixer set up is if I get a completely customised inlet made up. But that is obviously a long shot!

Good things take time.....& money :( Besides. Alot can be learned from this build & perhaps others will appreciate this? The Merc forum members are, on one side, biting @ the bit for me to get this right. On the other side. So much confusion & conflicting reports on unsuccessful builds using mixer that it's forced me to rethink the entire set up. I wish it was easier like a Mazda DOHC turbo build BUT it's not......

NaughtyGT
21-06-2010, 10:27 AM
NOW! this is where it gets interesting. Some facts to lay down about LPG & what's the latest & not-so greatest things going around!

I've researched the pants off this so here we go......

Vapour Injection: Hmmmm. Sounds good. Wouldn't touch it for now. In a few years maybe they will get it right but for now. Nope! Not just the rediculous cost. Anywhere up to $8k to use the best gear including top shelf Stand Alone & the rest. The kits being turned out are simply crap! From the horses mouth that's all I'll elaborate for now so as not to offend any member that may wish to go this route. I aint' pullin' no punches that's all!!!

Liquid Injection: Even greater expense far outways advantages! They don't tell you about the ECU associated fiddly bits necessary to set up etc etc......

Hense the most reliable & powerful LPG cars are still via a GR Mixer. However. The later GR components are not as good as he earlier stuff so be weary of the new GR gear for now & seemingly the future unfortunately :o

Spoke @ length with turbo specy this morning. The GR set up on the Merc incorporates the older style, more robust GR Mixer that made it such an awesome product for high performance race cars. Still above anything today. The problem was it was fitted & modified all wrong! Here's why.

No jet in the main venturi body that feeds into the barrel :eek: Access line that feeds into IC pipe that exits the mixer connected wrong. Cog that works in sequence with the TB mechanism/cable not working. THIS IS WHY IT STARVED ENGINE OF GAS!!!!

So suffice to say car is being picked up tomorrow morning to go to workshop. Old Mixer is being sent off to have venturi enlarged & body/mechanisms to be reconditioned. New twin converters being ordered. Inlet manifold does NOT need modifying after all. Custom exhaust manifold to be started ASAP. Bob's your uncle. Going for minimum 400HP. I would say this is max for the turbo & stock head gasket/compression :cool:

I a happy chappy now :D:D:D

NaughtyGT
21-06-2010, 08:16 PM
The LPG set up allows me to run higher boost than you could with petrol on stock compression too haha......due to the higher octane. That's one plus for all this....

I'm thinking a high/low switch. Say 6psi low & 12psi high? I now a member who is running the turbotechnics twin set up on same stock engine but on petrol & he's just up'd his to 10psi without a drama.

Just ordered new engine mounts, radiator, hoses & cap from Canberra store where I got gearbox mount & tailshaft coupling last week. Should arrive within next few days so workshop can go ahead with install then. Flamin adds up quick :eek:

At this stage I'm just hoping I won't need a stand alone. The MSD ignition & timing computer should suffice.

BGSP
21-06-2010, 09:59 PM
Are you going for 400HP at the wheels?

NaughtyGT
22-06-2010, 06:11 AM
yep! I,m chasing this as it's a heavy, solid car.

Can't expect much more with the high-flowed T03 anyway. It max's out @ 450 apparently. I won't go larger on the turbo as I want nice low down acceleration & quick spool. Not after top-end @ all. Can't go higher anyway for reliability purposes as the running gear won't handle it. I think to get it to 400 horsies is pushing the boundaries, a little over street use anyway lol. Braking, handling. All that would be severely compromised even now. Even though the brakes are said to handle this power?

Tbh. This build's all about having the power so the weight of the car doesn't take from the driving pleasure. It's OK to have the looks & comfort sure. But all this time & bullcrap to end up with a heavy slow lump? Don't think so.

Mad Mat
22-06-2010, 06:18 AM
hey quick question, (and sorry if this question has been asked before) what about the gear box????? can it handle the 400hp????

NaughtyGT
22-06-2010, 06:25 AM
hey quick question, (and sorry if this question has been asked before) what about the gear box????? can it handle the 400hp????

yeah Mat. If it's driven with respect & considering it's just been rebuilt. Guaranteed to handle about 380 @ the flywheel as these are what the larger V8's put out. Some of the V8 boxes were bit bigger & stronger parts though.

Also. Another reason for ditching the wheels up ahead. The tyres are too ballooned on the rims. 225's on 8 inch rims....Should be minimum 235/245. This is a concern for me. This was done cause the previous owner had it so low. I'm raising it a tad as it has to pass engineers cert etc :rolleyes:

Mad Mat
22-06-2010, 06:29 AM
cool :).... hmmm think it will if in my enginebay???? ;)

NaughtyGT
22-06-2010, 06:32 AM
cool :).... hmmm think it will if in my enginebay???? ;)

maybe Mat but you'll prolly need to line your front guards & rails with lead haha.....

Mad Mat
22-06-2010, 07:49 AM
maybe Mat but you'll prolly need to line your front guards & rails with lead haha.....

lol hmmm new chasie it is then :D hee hee its been done before lol.. there is a 20b sp20 in the usa lol... but it has 15inch wide tires and about 1000 hp.... ow yer did i say it was a drag car lol ;)

NaughtyGT
22-06-2010, 11:07 AM
lol hmmm new chasie it is then :D hee hee its been done before lol.. there is a 20b sp20 in the usa lol... but it has 15inch wide tires and about 1000 hp.... ow yer did i say it was a drag car lol ;)

your not called Mad Mat for nothin' lol :p Hey feels good to actually talk to performance folk about the car. Spent an hr going over the finer details. They are more confident after actually seeing the beast. Awesome following it on a tray back & then seeing it in a workshop haha. Gonna be a big job. They are going to give it the sleeper look under the bonnet. Maybe relocate battery to boot & put the twin convertors where battery was behind firewall partition. Make it look neat. Better for authorities too. Prolly keep smaller IC until it is registered. Then cut **** outta stuff in engine bay to make a big-ass one fit? Also. Getting an airbox to cover air pod. Matt black for all the engine bay parts such as IC piping so again, keeps the authority wanks off the trail....secret goodies will be outta sight & outta mind hehe....

Depends on how it looks with fibreglass engine cover once finished? I have to drop this off so they can have a gander.

Looks like it'll need a better MSD ignition system. The old one is for a V8 & cannot see, therefore control the timing under boost. Specy will see how it goes & change it if necessary. Hey @ least it's in the right hands now.....poor car deserves it after all it's been through. Me too lolol!

First. Block needs to be tapped for oil return line. Then....in it goes with box :cool: Beautiful thing is they are just up the road so I can pop in whenever I need to. Now........anyone expert in Bank Jobs :D

Few new parts ordered:

New Behr Radiator & all hoses
Engine Mounts
Trans Mount
Tailshaft Coupling

NaughtyGT
23-06-2010, 06:30 AM
I'm resolved to see how running gear handles the 400+ horsies. Iron out any bugs etc. Will never tramp it or anything stupid but plan is to drive it hard for few 1000k's (nice daily for awhile hehe..) & if something breaks (running gear from trans back), deal with it then. Means it was going to happen up ahead anyway! If it doesn't. It'll be reliable enough to do long trips :cool:

Once I have bit more cash & time passes. I may beef it up a bit more with stronger running gear. Larger IC. Larger jetting?

Thing is. The later (91-95) 300E's that used the DOHC 3.0L engine had larger diff crown wheels. So stronger obviously. Don't know about the tailshaft & assoc' bits though? The engines were more powerful in stock trim but the SOHC engines, as in mine, are more robust were boosting is concerned. Can handle more abuse. Stock unopened they can handle 650 horsies with just bolt-ons. Only concern being the original head gaskets. Btw. BMW have a stock engine that handles 1000hp! This is why I luv these Messerschmidt's haha.....:D

The model I have is quite basic as far as trinkets & add-ons are concerned. Built to last not tear down the quarter mile. (well.....mine perhaps :p). Newer models were where it all went wrong imo. Superfluous. Expensive to repair/replace luxury items such as seat warmers, electric seat settings, self-leveling suspension, hydraulic engine mounts ($1,900 for instance) mine were like $270 a pair.....list goes on. 300E's like mine are just a commodore on steroids really. Heavier. Stronger. Much more reliable, but still simple ;) I kinda respect this. No sensors (except 02 exhaust).

I'm fully aware of the benefits of EFI. The 323GT of mine was awesome in it's day & still is! DOHC, EFI, TURBO/IC bla bla.....THE ****! & I simply luv it to bits. Hence it's still in the garage waiting for me to put it back together :rolleyes:

This MERCUS ERECTUS though is very different. A great big hard-on on wheels! haha.....The injection's tossed for LPG. Simple gas fed via a carby (basically) only, PROPERLY. If they get this right. Which they guarantee they will. How more reliable can a car be? This is why I'm persisting with this car. It could be great. It will be if done right.

So.....when it gets home I have to get rear screen replaced. Buy some speakers, amp & rewire the Sound System completely :rolleyes: Replace springs all round. Tyres probably. Then register when I can!

NaughtyGT
24-06-2010, 07:04 AM
will be doing some cool touches to bonnet & boot here on Weekend. Bitta AMG old style lol....Black the chrome bonnet grill & boot emblem to make the exterior more 2-tone & eliminate chrome crap haha.....

NaughtyGT
28-06-2010, 12:50 PM
..........well @ least it's in it's corner of the workshop with front guard covers on it.......ready to go........be started this week.........:rolleyes:......yeah.......:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

NaughtyGT
05-07-2010, 07:44 AM
While car is in workshop having it's organ transplants I been looky looky @ some head & tail lights haha.....

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/AU0634.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/BAF-21041LHQRHQ-COM-0-thumb.jpg

only thing is I would prolly have to correct the beam direction of the headlights as they are configured for US (left hand drive) :o

Mad Mat
05-07-2010, 11:00 AM
i love them... they look hot :D

NaughtyGT
05-07-2010, 11:33 AM
i love them... they look hot :D

yeah I reckon they'd give it the sporty look with front grill & boot badge painted black :cool: I have however been told they aren't an easy mod to get the beams to legal RHD configeration :o I still reckon I could cut & chop them with a little patience but for now I'm just finding out how hard they would be

NaughtyGT
14-07-2010, 09:43 AM
it's happening.....sumps removed from engine & return oil line bung being tapped in block. Engine looks really clean with no usual sludge from bad services :D Looks like a winner!

Workshop has opted to customise inlet manifold. This involves cutting runners & welding in a completely new log-rolled section that moves the throttle body from middle up to front of engine so intercooler piping is now shorter = less volume & quicker spooling = :cool: You wouldn't do this with NA set up but the extra pressure afforded by the turbo will work sweet as. All smooth mandrel intercooler bends. Just smick!

this is why I'm working extra days so I don't skimp on any area @ all. Slave to the car for a while I'm afraid :o

BGSP
14-07-2010, 12:12 PM
Awesome man, this has made an interesting read, I wish it was my project

NaughtyGT
14-07-2010, 12:21 PM
I'm finally getting excited lol. Interesting how these guys are modding parts as they go :) What's uncanny is I have been wondering how the stock inlet would go with the LPG. Was going to suggest they do something so rang them today & they told me the turbo guy working on car was ripping into the manifold as we spoke :eek: Will certainly be a custom engine bay I guess haha & @ least now I have some juicy stuff to write up on

NaughtyGT
03-08-2010, 03:50 PM
Not alot of movement @ workshop lately as they are snowed down with more jobs. Oh well. Time to put some $$ together for it. Engine is going in this week & they presume within 3 weeks to have both manifolds completed. The Inlet has had the runners chopped down so they now resemble 6 air-rams. These will feed into a huge aluminium casing, much like the Boxy Plenums on the J-Spec B6T's only much larger. Apparently this will guarantee the cylinders won't lean out again as with stock set up the previous time.

Other change is the decision to go bigger with the turbo. Bit of an expected change really due to weight of car.

Not much else though so hopefully I'll be looking @ some real work when I have a looksie in 3 weeks time :)

RustyKaos
03-08-2010, 04:22 PM
YAY can't wait to see this project finished. :D

NaughtyGT
03-08-2010, 04:34 PM
YAY can't wait to see this project finished. :D

You & me both Rusty. I don't wanna rush them & risk something going wrong after all this. At least they are thinking it out as they go. I have a suspicion the main turbo guy is using ideas off his XR6 turbo. He used a similar Boxy Plenum style Inlet same as he is doing to mine. He showed me this when I first met these guys. I remember commenting when I saw the work under the bonnet. "Looks pretty stock" (for an XR6 that is haha)......he just turned & gave me a sinister grin hehe :p I thought to myself 'stock my arse :p

Anyway. I just want it right :cool:

BGSP
03-08-2010, 05:31 PM
Anyway. I just want it right :cool:

I agree if you want it done right do it the first time

NaughtyGT
07-08-2010, 03:51 PM
Been researching my proverbial off to decide on right turbo to choose. One Turbo keeps popping up that challenges a twin set up. No debate worth going into whether twins are better as it's well established the right set up twin system is awesome but considering $$$$, labour & pita set up. A single able to get similar performance is worth a look into. A proper look into.

The GT35R! Has both High & Low advantages. Best of both worlds? Been around only for a few years or so as I can gather? The trim is a tricky decision to make although here's what I've managed to decipher so far: Be it 3563; 3582 or a hybrid of a 35 compressor, bolted to a T4 turbine housing. Some go for the 3540 size that would give great low-mid range performance! Seems very nice on a 3.0L. These rate @ 600 or so hp so would easily give you 400, reliably that is

If you consider the mad Russian (living in Sweden haha) runs high boost on stock compression with even bigger units. This begs consideration. Certainly makes me think twice.

For me personally. It would have to spool @ 3500rpm @ least & if @ 3000rpm with right dimensions/specs then, done deal There is also the Billet compressors & surge valves etc to consider but it is all depending on $$$ & practicality in the end. The info is awesome though for those who want to stretch the boundaries.

Will be looking closely @ this beast that's for sure.

After heaps of neck-acing research I still have to decide on right dimensions etc but with little time now to make my mind up :eek::eek::eek::eek:. These turbos are working real nice on 3.0L platforms so may just be what I'm looking for :cool:

NaughtyGT
07-08-2010, 08:19 PM
um......been researching (what's new:D) all this talk about going for a smallish turbo to ensure quicker spool. Not necessarily so! Yes, obviously it would make sense & many will support this reasoning. But unless engine is strengthened (bottom end wise.....piston composition more precisely), to withstand the heat/stresses placed on it by a hard-working little turbo maxing out......stock pistons will be @ the mercy of dangerously high heat & thus efficiency extremely compromised. Not ideal conditions for reliability what?

A large turbo, especially the newer high-end ones such as GT; GTR; Billet etc have anti-surge compressor snouts which brings me to another equally important bit of information. A turbo that is too small for an application can cause surging & resulting lack of power/response through the power band. I guess akin to fuel-cut?

Just something very important when listening to advice form just anyone cause they have a car & it's quick. Again. This is mainly only a problem when you have a bigger engine such as a 3.0L or >

P.S. Then there's twin scroll verse single or, twin scroll exhaust flange to suit twin scroll exhoust manifold (to be more precise :D) = quicker spool time. Below is a link explaining the ins & outs of choosing the right turbo for road application (not track/drag:mad::D)

http://www.supraforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=530737&page=4

Surely some folk will find this helpful :)

I'm leaking what I am 99.9% sure I am going with....check this little sweetheart out :eek:

Based on my calculations:

With the GT3582R and 0.63 A/R housing you could expect 17psi by 3000RPM and 360ft-lb @ 4500 and 400hp @ 7000. The backpressure will be high at this level with ~24psi of backpressure at 7000 RPM vs the 17psi boost pressure. If you turned this setup up you could get 450 ft-lb@ 4500 and 460hp@ 6500 at 25psi. Backpressure here would be REALLY high, ~36psi at redline.

P.P.S.S......with it in mind that he is referring to a 3.0L Supra.....I like his calculations :D

BGSP
08-08-2010, 12:22 AM
99.9 I want the whole 100

NaughtyGT
08-08-2010, 05:27 AM
99.9 I want the whole 100

hehe.....just gotta research a bit more & speak with workshop Monday then I'll know :cool:

NaughtyGT
08-08-2010, 08:05 PM
Here's a little (very informative) passage on the ins & outs of choosing the right turbo & how it all works for those that are keen on the workings of a turbo:

This is how to choose the Garrett GT turbo that will rock you!

The clever turbine engineers at Garrett have shared with us their turbo and performance specifications in the form of measurements, and compressor and turbine maps, and with a little knowledge we can use them to find the right turbo for every application. As we collect more actual results we will be able to even more accurately predict performance on the 3S-GTE. But we already have the tools we need, and you can learn a lot of the nitty-gritty stuff from the section "Turbine Efficiency - Part 2...the missing piece to the turbo selection puzzle".
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarre...bo_tech101.html
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarre...bo_tech102.html
http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarre...bo_tech103.html

I'll just cover the highlights from that thread, and highlight the highlights in bold, to present this information in an easy to understand form, and use it to establish some general guidelines to finding the turbo of your dreams...the one that will provide the realistic best possible spool for the strongest bottom end, fullest mid-range, and extended top end.

A quick and dirty review of how a turbo works is essential as it is fundamental to understanding the tools we have to help us choose. A turbo is an air pump that’s powered by the energy contained in the engine's exhaust gas flow by spinning a turbine impeller wheel. That wheel rotates on a shaft that has a compressor wheel mounted to the other end that then also spins and forces more air into the engine's intake. It's the exhaust energy and turbine wheel that powers the compressor wheel to increase intake air pressure, and your boost controller that determines the amount of pressure (with the wastegate redirecting exhaust flow as required to prevent over-boosting). It's important to recognize that it's the compressor wheel that's in charge of reaching the desired boost pressure, and the turbine wheel’s job to spin it accordingly. When the turbine is struggling to do its job effectively the compressors ability to provide boost in a timely manner is compromised and we recognize this effect as turbo lag. When it's completely up to the challenge to power the compressor we recognize it as providing excellent throttle response.

In fact, our success in choosing the best turbo for our use rests solely on our ability to understand this relationship between turbine and compressor. And for our purposes of choosing among the GT line that relationship is primarily determined by (a) the relative diameters of those two wheels and (b) the aerodynamics of the turbine housing. The resulting performance is called Turbine Efficiency, and its measure is expressed as a percentage. A turbo whose turbine can efficiently power the compressor to produce quick spool and less restricted top end flow has a higher %, often close to or slightly exceeding 70%, while others are as low as 60%.

Here's what we're looking for in the Garrett specs:

(a) Garrett recommends a wheel diameter ratio range between 1.1:1 and 1.25:1 (compressor:turbine) to provide the best overall performance. As an example the GT28RS has a ratio of 1.1:1 (60mm/53.8mm) at the quickest spooling end of the range, and the GT3076R has 1.27:1 (76.2mm/60mm)…barely outside the other end of the range. The reason a large compressor wheel mated to a smallish wheel would not be able to spool as quickly is because a largish compressor wheel will need to turn slower to provide any given intake airflow than a smaller wheel would, and this in-turn forces the turbine wheel on the other end of the shaft to turn slower, and at speeds that it can’t operate as efficiently at. This is contrary to those that believe a comparatively small turbine wheel and housing will cause the largish compressor to spool more quickly. Dyno results confirm Garrett’s recommendations every time, while I have never seen evidence of a small turbine/large compressor spooling nearly as quickly.

Good examples to see this effect would be the GT28RS, GT2871R (or HKS GTRS), and GT2876R (or HKS GT2540R). All three share the identical turbine housing and wheel, but are mated with 60mm, 71mm, and 76 mm compressor wheels. The latter two compressor wheel diameters push the wheel ratio well outside of the recommended range to 1.32:1 and 1.45:1. Each larger compressor wheel causes a delay in spool of perhaps 750 rpm to ~17 psi and makes less top end power as well. The only way to make these wider spaced wheel combinations make more power is to significantly raise boost pressure. This however will not reduce lag, the restrictively small turbine wheel and housing will limit high rpm power as it reduces the entire engine’s VE, less ignition timing can be run at high rpm causing reduced power from the airflow, exhaust temps will be higher, and you’ll have to deal with all of the risks associated with higher boost levels. The solution is to follow Garrett’s recommendations whenever possible.

(b) The turbine housings are designed to maximize turbine efficiency. In some cases though a turbine housing will be made or modified to fit specific user applications like space constraints or the lack of suitable sized exhaust manifold turbine mounting flanges for some popular applications. This has led to small turbines modified to stuff in large wheels, large turbos with small turbines made to fit onto small exhaust manifold flanges, smallish turbos modified to fit onto large flanged manifolds, etc…and all of them have reduced the turbine’s efficiency to spool quickly and produce the strongest powerband. The impact of some twin scroll housings can’t be predicted because of their lack of turbine efficiency ratings by Garrett, but their impact will be seen in dyno results. In some of these cases the wheel ratio will appear to be ideal, but the modification to the turbine housing itself can negatively affect turbine efficiency. This is why it’s important to know the Garrett tested Turbine Efficiency % rating.

The various iterations of GT3071R is a good example of these variables. All models use the 71 mm compressor wheel, but some have a 56.5mm turbine wheel stuffed into a machined T28 turbine housing, some have the better matched 60mm turbine wheel fitted to a twin scroll housing of unknown efficiency, and the one that mates it with the 60 mm turbine wheel and T3 single scroll housing. The latter is surely the best of the bunch using Garrett’s specs and recommendations, and it’s very high efficiency rating of 72% and ideal wheel ratio of 1.18:1means that for this size of turbo you are unlikely to find anything that will out-spool or out-flow it. It also means that the similarly flow rated GT2871R models with less than ideal wheel ratio and as little as 60% turbine efficiency will not perform as well as the GT3071R at 72%. Some feel that the GT3071R versions that have been used on the 3S-GTE have been less than stellar performers, but these results I'd suggest are consistent with Garrett’s specs, ratings, and the recommendations presented here. Let’s choose the best model and set some powerband records!

I’d recommend that you first use the Garrett compressor maps to identify the compressor that can flow your requirements (see Garrett’s Turbo Tech section for these calculations), and then to consider the wheel ratios and the turbine efficiency ratings found on their turbine maps as a guide to matching that compressor with a suitable turbine wheel and housing. While efficiency actually varies with flow rate, pressure ratio (think boost level), and turbine wheel rotation speed, the stated maximum efficiency rating is going to be quite comparable among all models within the GT line.

Now you need to choose the turbine housing AR. You’ll notice on the turbine maps that the efficiency curves are different for the various available turbine housing AR. These shows that the lower AR housings are more efficient at lower flow rates generated at lower engine rpm, while higher AR housings are more efficient at higher rpm flow rates. These housing options will allow you to choose between maximum low rpm spool and power at the cost of a little high rpm peak power, or maximum peak power at the cost of a little lower rpm performance, or something in-between if there’s a 3rd option. Valendia and RickyB provided a good dyno comparison of this AR housing trade-off using a .64 and .82 AR on the GT28RS. The lower AR made for a significantly stronger powerband overall on this setup, and I believe we will see this trend with each turbo model and engine setup…if peak power is your goal the higher AR will likely provide that every time.

I hope this will help you better choose from the GT turbo options that are available.

Bruce Hadfield

Garrett specs, compressor and turbine maps can be found at http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarre...bochargers.html , and

Compressor selection guidelines at http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarre...ech_center.html

Turbine Efficiency - Part 2...the missing piece to the turbo selection puzzle

Let’s quickly review the resources we’ve been using to choose a turbo so we can better appreciate our current needs:

1. Testimonials. While it may be entertaining to hear about how somebody smoked another car at a stop light, or how they got pushed back into the seat when the turbo kicked in, the general lack of useful information and the subjective nature of the comments leads us directly to #2.

2. Dyno Graphs. Dynos measure power at the wheels (or hubs) and that power is affected by many non-turbo factors. While dyno results have been widely regarded as the best tool we have to measure the difference certain modifications make, they are not a perfect tool. General engine condition, supporting mods, boost levels that can change during a run, aggressiveness of the air/fuel ratio and ignition timing, octane, 3rd vs. 4th gear, and a wide range of dyno equipment and testing factors and conditions can make it difficult to clearly see the impact of only the turbo, or compare one turbo to another. Throw in some mods that can greatly differ from car to car, such as the state of tune of an EMS, or mods that affect volumetric efficiency like a set of cams and cam gears, custom intake, and maybe a little head-work, and it becomes almost impossible to determine how much of the dyno results are the result of the turbo alone. At best you can see what is possible on a given set-up. If you want to research a turbo not yet dyno’d, or learn more about the ones you see in the dynos, you proceed to the dreaded step #4.

3. Turbo “Power Ratings/Estimates” Often around as useless as Testimonials and with all the limitations of Dyno plots (so many other things that effect power other than turbo by itself)

4. Compressor Maps. These are the turbo manufacturer’s graphic representations of the compressor’s ability to flow air across a range of pressure ratios. Compressor efficiency and shaft speeds are shown. We then need to “estimate” our engine’s airflow requirements throughout our desired powerband using a complicated formula designed by the devil him self, and then learn all about a compressor map so we can check to see which compressor “might” be able to provide the required amount of airflow. You really should struggle through the formula of estimating your engine’s airflow requirements to truly appreciate all the factors that affect it. While you may have been led to believe that finding a suitable compressor map will identify a suitable turbo, this isn’t necessarily true, and many members have discovered this the hard way. That’s because the ability of the compressor to deliver its indicated airflow is dependant on the turbos turbine section, and something called turbine efficiency…the subject of this article.

Turbine Efficiency

So what is turbine efficiency and why should we care? The compressor relies on the turbine to use the exhaust gas energy to power the shaft that spins the compressor wheel that pushes the air through the engine to create ungodly amounts of torque when mixed with fuel and a well-timed spark. And if the turbine goes about it’s job in a sloppy and inefficient way then the compressor won’t be able to do its job well, and performance will suffer. A turbine operating at high efficiency will be able to more quickly spool a compressor when called upon to make good low-end power, and/or will provide less back-pressure at high rpm to enable the turbo to make more top-end power by actually improving the engine’s volumetric efficiency. Turbine efficiency is the ratio of useful exhaust energy to total energy supplied, the flow at which it’s efficiency is the highest at all pressure ratios is plotted on it's “turbine map”. and it's maximum efficiency is stated as a percentage.

Turbine efficiency and maps are closely related to the compressor, and further discussion would be easier if related to an actual turbo. Only Garrett publishes turbine maps to my knowledge, and since I was able to use them to select my turbo and then acquire actual 3S-GTE results, let’s use my GT28RS for our example. It will then be interesting to see how we can carefully navigate through a staggering choice of 17 GT turbos models and predict their performance. I’ll make this clear by keeping it fairly simple…I promise!

Example - Crunching the numbers for a stock Gen 2 3S-GTE

Calculating Engine Airflow Requirements

The turbo analysis starts with finding a compressor that might meet our engine’s air flow needs. As mentioned in step #3 above, we calculate those estimated requirements with a formula, and then try to plot them on the compressor map. The stock 3S-GTE will flow ~15 lbs/min of air @ 3000 rpm up to ~30 lbs/min @ ~6000 rpm at a pressure ratio (Pr) of 2.25, which is approximately a boost level of 17 psi at sea level when accounting for normal intake system pressure losses, and making various educated guesses including a volumetric efficiency of ~95% at 6000 rpm. This estimate is telling us how much air the engine is capable of ingesting at 17 psi, and we calculate it over the range of rpm that we are hoping it will have full boost. I focused on 3000-7000 rpm as being the most important area for the widest range of driving needs, and you might choose something else for your needs. Power at any given rpm is dependant on the amount of air (and fuel) that the engine is consuming, and this is why we study airflow. Garrett very generally uses 9.5-10.5 flywheel hp per lb/min of flow for power estimates…so let’s think massive flow!

Compressor Map

See the compressor map below where I have plotted these airflow requirements at 3k, 4k, 5k, 6k and 7000 rpm on the map at the 2.25 Pr. Note that airflow is shown on the x axis and Pr on the y axis, and that all of these points fit nicely on the map suggesting that the compressor should be able to provide the required amount of air to maintain 17 psi from around 3000-7000 rpm. Plotting all of these points was not possible on other compressor maps that I had found back in the summer of 2003. The various concentric lines and numbers are noting the changing compressor efficiencies as airflow increases. Lower compressor efficiency at each side indicates that more heat will be added to the intake air than when it’s providing the airflow shown in the middle of the map where it’s more efficient. Temperature has an impact on air density, which is one determinant of airflow. Lower intake air temperature generated by a more efficient compressor, or improved inter-cooling does make more power…and so does higher turbine efficiency!

Please note that a stock VE motor will reach it's maximum airflow around 6000 rpm, and after that the VE drops off and less air is consumed. The 7000 rpm plot would therefore only apply to a motor that had improved VE, and it could be more or less than what I've shown, and I'd suggest that both 264 and 274 cams could cause the motor to use considerably more air at 7000rpm.

Source of both maps: http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbo...RS_739548_1.htm

Compressor maps show only the flow of air that may be possible under ideal conditions, but to predict how it will perform when attached to any given turbine we must get into the turbine maps.

Turbine Map

This map indicates the turbine’s ability to convert the exhaust gases kinetic and thermodynamic energy into mechanical power to turn the shaft (and the compressor wheel) through the use of a turbine wheel. This “ability” is expressed as an efficiency rating. The manufacturer’s detailed map contains a lot of information related to exhaust flow, pressure ratio, shaft speeds, and efficiency. Garrett publishes a simplified version which can be found on their website, and I have shown the GT2860RS map below. Using this info can be a very good way to choose between two turbos with seemingly suitable compressor maps, and between two turbines with different area radius (AR) housings for the same turbo. It’s the missing piece to the turbo selection puzzle that turbo-machinery engineers have used for years.

This map shows a range of Pressure Ratios (Pr) on the x-axis and Turbine Flow on the y-axis. It also states that the turbo has a maximum turbine efficiency of 72%. There is a blue line showing the flows and pressures using the .64 AR housing that I have, and a red line for the .86 housing. Without knowing the exact method of calculating the turbine flow or pressure ratio, I think it suffices for the purpose of this discussion to assume that the turbine flow and pressure ratio is about the same as the compressor flow and pressure ratio that we would be looking at when using a compressor map, and we can jump between both maps and use the same measures inter-changeably.

Carrying on with our example at 17 psi (2.25 Pr), we can see that when this turbo with .64 AR housing is operated at a pressure ratio of 2.25, that its best efficiency will be achieved when flowing about 17.5 lbs/min as read from the y axis. I have highlighted that point in red. It also means that at any flow other than 17.5 lbs/min that the efficiency will be lower. If we now plot 17.5 lbs/min @ 2.25 Pr on the compressor map we find that it is half way between our 3000 and 4000 rpm points, or at about 3500 rpm. You will see later that 72% is an extremely high efficiency rating, which should indicate that the turbine will be able to meet the demands of the compressor to spool, and in fact my dyno plot and boost gage both indicate that the turbo actually spools slightly sooner to 17 psi @ 3250 rpm (where airflow would be close to 16.5lbs/min), but not by 3000 rpm that was plotted on the compressor map! This indicates that the turbine was not quite efficient enough at the 3000 rpm flow rate of 15 lbs/min to extract enough energy from the exhaust to power the shaft to spin the compressor to provide the airflow to reach 17 psi by 3000 rpm, but by 3250 rpm and 16.5 lbs/min it was! This is important because it shows how high turbine efficiency has to be to reach our spool goals, and at 15 lb/min flow, the rating of 72% @ 17.5 lb/min was not quite enough.

Go back and make sure you grasp that last paragraph and the rest will just fall into place…I promise!

Now what happens when airflows goes much higher than 17.5 lbs/min, and all the way up to 30 lbs/min at 6000 rpm? That’s a long ways from our best efficiency flow. The engine already finished spooling to 17 psi at 3250 rpm so why do we even care? Because turbine efficiency also affects turbine backpressure at high flow rates, and that reduces the engines volumetric efficiency and limits power. Although we do not know what the efficiency is at a flow of 30lb/min, we can assume that the turbine isn’t too small and restrictive, and still has a high enough efficiency, because the 200 ft-lb @ 7000 rpm result on the dyno is typical of those using even larger and less restrictive turbos. This turbos compressor and turbine is therefore not limited in airflow capacity or efficiency within the requirements of the stock 3S-GTE and 17 psi.

My dyno using the GT2860RS .64AR turbine

If you go back to the turbine map on page 3, you can see that the .86 AR also has a 72% efficiency but the whole curve is raised up 3-4 lbs/min to 21 lbs/min at the same Pr of 2.25. This means that at the lower rpm and flow rates that the engine consumes during spool up, that the turbine isn’t capable of working as hard, and it will not spool as quickly as the .64 AR. While we don’t know what the exact efficiency would be at 6000 rpm, we can assume that the .86 should be more efficient than the .64 AR, and that it may provide slightly more power...at those higher rpms. The 21 lbs/min peak efficiency would be a flow of about 4200 rpm, and it might also reach 17 psi a couple of hundred rpm sooner if our experience with the .64 AR is any indication.

Conclusions

We can see from our example that the GT28RS compressor map is a great match for the airflow requirements of the stock 3S-GTE VE engine because we were able to plot all of our calculated flow requirements from 3000 to its flow peak at 6000 rpm, and then out to redline where it actually consumes less airflow. The .64 AR, 72% @ 17.5 lb/min efficiency turbine is a great match for the compressor because it was able to power the compressor to reach each of those requirements, only barely missing the 3000 rpm point by 2 psi, and because it also provided the required flow to reach 200 ft-lbs @ 7000 rpm that is the standard set by the larger turbos. We can tell that the .86AR turbine will not be able to spool quickly enough to reach the flow requirements until closer to 4000 rpm, but its higher efficiency above 4000 may help it to make a little more power at 6000 rpm.

Garrett’s estimates 10-11 flywheel horsepower per lb/min of flow, and Ray Hall figures 10.86 per lbs/min of flow. So at a flow of 30 lbs/min @ 6000 rpm I should be making about 326 flywh.hp (10.86 X 30). Factoring in 15% driveline losses would mean ~277 whp @6000 rpm, and this is about what you'll see on the dyno. This perfect match is quite a coincidence given the number of variables involved, but it should at least show that making good educated guesses can get you awfully close.

You can analyze other models in the same way. While it’s an imperfect science, it can help you find the best match for your needs, and it can definitely identify a poor match. Even if a turbine map is not available for the turbo you are analyzing, there are things to consider.

Factors that will improve spool

There are a variety of ways that you can improve your spool, and while buying a different turbo, or perhaps a different turbine housing, is the big one because it directly addresses turbine efficiency, there are others also:

-Turbine Efficiency

1. Compressor wheel to turbine wheel ratio. That’s the compressor wheel exducer diameter divided by the turbine wheel inducer diameter. A large compressor wheel will not be as efficiently powered by a small turbine wheel. Garrett claims this is because the larger compressor wheel will need to turn at a slower speed to provide any given airflow, and that will force the smaller turbine wheel to work at shaft speeds that it is not as happy with. And a small turbine wheel will eventually cause a restriction with increasing exhaust flow, thereby limiting high rpm power. Garrett recommends a ratio in the range of 1.1:1 to 1.25:1 to provide the best compromise between spool and high rpm power. Considering wheel ratio alone can be misleading if the turbine wheel isn’t well matched to the turbine housing.

2. Turbine wheel to housing match. A larger turbine wheel adapted to fit into a smaller turbine housing will restrict exhaust flow and decrease turbine efficiency. Note the GT3071R with 56.5mm turbine wheel below, where turbine efficiency drops due to the housing matching.

3. Wheel and housing design. The most modern turbines outperform the older ones with increased turbine efficiency. They spool quicker and make more power. Choice of housing AR will shift the efficiency from faster spool to higher flow capability with each higher AR selection.

-Exhaust Flow Energy:

Increase flow at lower rpms by improving volumetric efficiency with headwork, increased displacement, etc.

-Exhaust Temperature Energy

Increase the exhaust temperatures at lower rpm with ignition tuning, exhaust cam timing, heat coatings, etc.

-Expansion Ratio

Reducing turbine housing and exhaust system flow backpressure improves expansion ratio. And since reducing backpressure also improves the engines volumetric efficiency, this improvement will also increase your power as more air is consumed.

TURBO ANALYSIS

Let’s look at several Garrett models, and compare their compressor map flow ratings, compressor/turbine wheel diameters, wheel ratio, and the maximum turbine efficiency and flow rate that it occurs. For ease of comparison I will record this information in a chart instead of trying to post all the maps, and I’ll use a Pressure Ratio (Pr) of 2.25, which is roughly the equivalent of 17 psi with a normal intake. I’ll list them from the smallest to largest turbo. I will then try to interpret the data using our knowledge of turbine efficiency, information from Garrett, and observations from a very limited number of dynos that I’ve seen on our member’s cars. Note that airflow range listed is for 2.25 Pr (~17 psi) where our engine airflow requirements are estimated to range from approx. 15 lbs/min @ 3000 to 30 @ 6k, and then less to redline on a stock VE Gen 2 3S-GTE. Stock VE refers to the motors internals, and flow requirements include bolt on VE mods like high flowing downpipes and exhausts. Readers should calculate their own airflow requirements, as there are various factors that can affect it. Many of these turbos will be used on modified engines that will actually consume more air at each rpm level and have extended rev limits.

GT2860RS 12-35 lbs/min, 60/53.8mm, 1.1:1 wheel ratio, 72% eff. @ 17.5 lbs/min.

This turbos is a great match, it can efficiently provide the required 30lb/min flow I needed for 17 psi, and has achieved terrific results on the stock VE 3S-GTE. See the “Conclusions” in the example above for details.

GT2871R 13-38 lbs/min, 71/53.8mm, 1.32:1 whl. ratio, 66% eff. @ 17.5 lbs/min.

This turbos compressor would have provided the airflow required from below 3000 rpm if the turbine efficiency was higher. The lower turbine efficiency of 66% however suggests that it will not spool as quickly as the GT28RS, nor make as much top end power regardless of housing AR choice. The 1.32:1 wheel ratio is less than ideal and would be the factor in the lower max. efficiency. The one dyno I’ve seen with unknown turbine AR appeared to spool approx. 750 rpm later and made no more power than the GT28RS despite 4 psi more boost. This is the comparison that best illustrates to me the significance of a lower efficiency rating since the turbos are identical except for the GT2871R having a larger compressor wheel which throws off the wheel ratio and efficiency. While variations in engines and dynos can be misleading, I think this does confirm Garrett’s own claim that on this size of turbine, a difference of 8-15% efficiency can cause a spool change of roughly 1500 rpm.

GT2876R 16-48 lbs/min, 76/53.8mm, 1.41:1 whl. ratio, 62% eff. @17.5 lbs/min.

The compressor has a much higher flow, and the 3000 rpm requirement of 15 lbs/min can not be plotted. It has a very low turbine efficiency caused entirely by the mismatched wheels according to Garrett, and the 1.41:1 wheel ratio results in efficiency of only 62%. Even Garrett does not recommend this turbo for general use, and a number of our members with the identical GT25R would readily agree…enough said.

GT3071R 15-47 lbs/min, 71/56.5mm, 1.26:1 whl. ratio, 64% eff. @18.5 lbs/min.

This compressor has a very appealing flow rating, and the 3000 rpm requirement can just barely be plotted. But the turbine has a poor efficiency rating, despite the acceptable wheel ratio. They used a larger GT30 turbine wheel that has been modified to fit into the smaller T25 housing according to Garrett, and this would explain the poor efficiency. The one dyno I’ve seen unfortunately seems to confirm that it will spool slowly in keeping with its turbine efficiency rating.

GT3071R, T3 turbine, single scroll 14.5-45 lbs/min, 71/60mm, 1.18:1 whl ratio, 72% eff. @19 lbs/min. Great new turbo for those with a mild build that can consume more airflow that the stock VE motor...see post #46 below for details.

GT3076R 18-52 lbs/min, 76.2/60mm, 1.27:1 whl. ratio, 72% eff. @ 21 lbs/min.

This compressor can flow even more air, but again misses the 3000 rpm point. The lowest flow requirement would plot ~3600 rpm. Those with a build that will flow this kind of air at the top will likely not mind the lag in exchange for the huge power. The turbine efficiency rating is excellent, reaching its peak at 21 lbs/min of flow. That means this turbo will spool like crazy reaching 17 psi around 4000 rpm with the .64 AR turbine, and will flow to beyond redline with any of the three turbine ARs. This could be the next GT champ for those with a power goal up to 500hp if they have the build to flow this kind of air. That could mean whp exceeding 400 whp with modest boost. This turbo is the best reason I’ve seen to buy an EMS, large cams, cam gears, intake manifold, a full head job, possible stroker, and professional tuning. Somebody try this one quick and post your results!

GT3271 15-38 lbs/min, 71/64 mm, 1.11:1 whl. ratio, 64% eff. @ 19.5 lbs/min.

This journal bearing GT has an appealing compressor map, but a low efficiency turbine. Looks like it could flow a bit more top end than the GT28RS until you realize the turbine just won’t support it with only 64% efficiency. The only dyno I’ve seen did produce slightly more power at 7000 rpm with an extra 4 psi of boost, and spooled what appeared to be ~750 rpm later.

GT3571 14-38 lbs/min, 71/68 mm, 1.04:1 whl. ratio, 70% eff. @ 29 lbs/min.

This journal bearing GT has a compressor map that fits our requirements, gives a little extra flow at the top, and it also has a high efficiency rating. I’m a bit puzzled by the max. efficiency being reached at a high 29 lb/min flow. That means it will spool hard around 6000 rpm to reach 17 psi. It has the compressor flow to support another 400 rpm, and the turbine should go along with the plan. Let me know if anyone has tried it.

GT3082R ? lbs/min, 82/60 mm, 1.37:1 whl. ratio, ? eff.

Also known as the GT3040, I’ve included this model as it’s a turbo that a few members have used and it is available in a kit. There are no maps shown for it on the Garrett site, but I’ve listed the only details pertaining to turbine efficiency that I can find.

What we’ve discussed about the wheel ratio affecting turbine efficiency perhaps doesn’t even apply in the same way at this power level. The 60mm turbine looks undersized for the top end power that a 82mm compressor might flow. See the dyno results in the Racing Records section to see the impressive results.

GT3582R 22-59 lbs/min, 82/68 mm, 1.21:1 whl. ratio, 70% eff. @ 22 lbs/min.

Also known as the GT35R, this compressor has huge flow capabilities and high turbine efficiency intended for the seriously modified engine (and perfect for the 3.0L Supra!). I'd refer you to the Racing Records section to see various impressive results.

I hope you’ve found this information of interest and will be able to apply it to your search or understanding of turbo performance.

Bruce Hadfield

Sources

“Turbo Matching” by Mike Kojima, SCC June 2003. Formula for calculating engine airflow, and plotting a compressor map.

“Performance Dictionary” by Jason Kavanagh, SCC July 2002. The Garrett engineer uses a detailed turbine map to discuss turbine efficiency.

Garrett website http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/index.html. Compressor and turbine specifications and maps.

NaughtyGT
09-08-2010, 10:04 AM
concerning engine/turbo matching some may find this quote from a pretty knowledgeable Supra owner very interesting? (the 35R mentioned is purely for example only as this is what I am interested in. It could relate to any particular size)........In my experience it doesnt matter what the displacement of the engine is nor its cyl count. a 35R likes .63 or .82 singlescroll and 1.06 twinscroll. a 42R likes 1.15 or 1.28 twinscroll (it does ok as a singlescroll, but definitely not great). a 408R likes .95 or 1.06 twinscroll (and SUCKS as a singlescroll). It doesnt matter if its a 1.6L b series honda or a 3.4L stroker 2JZ every turbo has a sweet spot turbine housing. the turbo doesnt care what "pump" (engine) its attached to, it just sees mass flow rates and behaves accordingly

NaughtyGT
09-08-2010, 03:22 PM
Spent good hr speaking stuff over with workshop techi & have settled on the turbo I'll be putting on the car. Also fuel management & a TIMELINE ahhu :eek::eek:

The turbo I chose is a BB GT3582R (aka GT3540R or GT35R) with .84 exhaust housing, billet compressor wheel & ceramic bearing case. Modified @ the shop. Purely custom for balance between spool time & reliability. I was almost going to run with the .63 turbine housing but 2 things stopped me.

1) it would light up the wheels too quickly & this car in the wet.....er.....no!
2) the smaller exhaust housing will place more heat on the inlet parts so.....no!

Probably looking @ 300rwkw reliably on 15psi with hopefully not too greater lag than if I used the smaller housing? After so much trouble to get a good low km engine & all the money I'm spending to get this car together I'm not willing to sacrifice reliability & safety just to get more punch

Another important point to using a bigger turbo is economy. Instead of the smaller turbo arching to spool when you just want to drive easy. The bigger one will tend to not punch rather, sit mostly idle allowing better economy on slow drives remaining @ low boost. Workshop guy runs the same turbo on his XR6 & he drives @ 1/4 throttle with turbo pulling 6psi around town all day. Sounds OK to me ;)

In the end longevity outweighed performance risks.

Important new mods we've settled on:

a) Modified MT8 Stand Alone with timing chip only (all LPG needs)
b) Larger IC

.....@ the best part.......we've decided to go hammer & tongs & car should be ready in month! :eek: From engine apart & still on stand to running down the road.

NaughtyGT
10-08-2010, 02:37 PM
After talking over with workshop again today & another Merc owner have decided to let go of the HP bar & concentrate more on the sprint :o The heat scare will be sorted by larger IC.

Amazingly. The performance difference between the 30 series & the 35 series DOWN LOW & MID sincerely negligible! I actually found an EVO owner who fitted both GT's to same car & powerband on dyno readings were almost identical :shock: only real difference, as you'd expect (& I'm positive you'd know) is right @ the top-end say, 5500-6000rpm. This range is limit for my application anyway. Thois is why I chose the larger compressor housing/wheel to get that power down.

I am going for the smaller .63 a/r which really isn't that small lol. The T03 highflow I have now for sale is .63 exhaust! If I don't like the responsiveness than I will simply swap it out to the .84 housing & be done with it. The only trade-off will be top-end power seen only in dyno chart & good only for track/drag use.

P.S. I can always pull more boost though 8) hehe....to close the gap a little.....

P.P.S.S. btw......has it occurred to anyone to get relief from lag......just change down a gear haha.... :lol: :p

NaughtyGT
12-08-2010, 08:03 AM
HP/KW ratings aside, I'm tempted to try 16-17psi to allow the GT35 to work closer within it's efficiency range. Have noted people saying 14-15psi or, 1 bar, is a reliable boost to run with this engine in stock, unopened trim. The only member I have noted however going past this is Roman (Pumpish) going to 20-21psi. Not sure (he hasn't replied) whether he used the custom steel head gasket or if original one is in place? The stock 12V running gear, especially the diff size, is concerning me a tad @ these higher boosts. This I need to decide in the next few weeks.

Since I'll be using the MT8 for timing control. Most will be aware of the benefits of software -programmable ECU's over the basic timing computer like the MSD range sell that V8's employ (as in the original set up on my car by previous owner) Basically you set the timing to retard say, 2 degrees @ a given psi/bar boost level. Ie: for each 5 psi of boost, the timing is retarded 2 degrees. Works OK but not alot of control over AFM's. No ability to accurately map parameters like you can if you use the stand alone ECU's. What really sold me was with the sand alone, you can pretty much 'guarantee' the engine is going to be provided with correct desired 'AFR's right through the rev/boost range. Not just better performance but the safety/piece of mind of knowing car is told exactl what to do @ any given time & NEVER lean out

I'm hoping to get sound advice from Roman (Pumpish). A member from a US Forum who has featured his mad projects all over the place getting absolutely sic results. Regardless. He proves/shows what performance these engines are capable of producing along with it's limits. Important to keep in mind, he thrashes the bags off his cars so the testing is quite impressive!

P.S. my head hurts atm Just reading on how various exhaust housing A/R's play @ different boosts & the danger of heat/detonation when exhaust flow is restricted! Again. With my build. There is not much tech stuff to sort through. The main engines that closely match the M103 are Supra 2.5L 1jz engines. The 3.0L 2jz heads flow better so aren't are real hot comparison to the lazy-ass M103 head lol. Also. LPG inherently poses less detonation risk anyway so alot of stuff I read concerns pump fuel & therefore furthers to my 'guessing game crusade' I've embarked upon haha.....NOT :mad::p

What is for sure (yet, once again, little tested on the Merc) is the custom exhaust will greatly assist exhaust flow & therefore ease the horrid problem of exhaust heat/restriction greatly so.......again, except for Pumpish's projects, uncharted waters I paddle :o

P.P.S.S. Also. A bigger compressor housing with smaller wheel, as seen with the GT30 (afaik, uses same comp housing size as GT35?) turbo would be better suited for those wnating to run higher boost. Me on the other hand, want to keep boost down (due to stock compression) so this is why I am opting for the GT35 over simply settling for the GT30. Keeping in mind down low & mid, powerband seems pretty much similar. A rare case, as mentioned by another where going bigger turbo than you might think to is OK

chicaboo
12-08-2010, 10:23 AM
Don't tempt fate...

NaughtyGT
12-08-2010, 10:51 AM
Don't tempt fate...

ohhhhh......your know fun :mad::p.....always sound advice though from you Gav :cool: I guess I am bit bamboozled with the best boost to run for the turbo. It's easy for folk to talk about "full boost" @ some certain revs but they make too little light on when boost begins to really kick in. They quickly point out when engine goes bazurk but not when it starts to liven things up. I think this is an important point @ least part of the time left not considered? The XR6T that my workshop guy uses as his daily runs the GT3540 with the large 1.06 A/R exh housing. He gets 6psi happening with 1/4 throttle! That's a 4.0L so a larger straight six. He can afford the larger housing A/R than me & the lag is less a drama with his engine obviously than mine.

On this note......looking back now, with Naughty, I would have been better running with stock VJ14 exh housing & not the 15R BPT one :( Oh well. The MT8 may cover this a bit?

Back to boost for the GT35.....think I will try the 15psi & see how it goes under different driving conditions then go from there.......

NaughtyGT
13-08-2010, 01:56 PM
hmmmmm.....interesting how you forget the basics......higher compression equates to quicker spool. LPG, higher boost ability (as long as you can guarantee gas keeps up with the airflow ;))

I'm kinda agreeing with some of the Merc guys contributing to my performance thread on Merc forum.......this thing is really gonna hammer :cool: I'm just not allowing myself to get too ahead of myself until I believe the gas delivery is adequate. I know this is the main reason I am paying experts to build the car but I'm trusting their judgement with alot of my own personal hope. If I pull this off. This thing will be a 1 & only build. If I fug it? I know what I'm faced with doing but won't go down that path unless necessary. I've spent most of the money so far so except for twin convertors/vapourisers, reco'd mixer, custom inlet & ext manifold, wastegate, BOV?, now it's mainly labour, pipe work & hoses, clamps & other misc bits to join it all together. Still some $$$$ though :eek: Rear screen. Also. turbo back mandrel exhaust.

The dyno however will be a scary thing for me. I figure on doing a couple of passes say, 10psi first then 12, then 14-15? Maybe to 17 but canot decide just yet until I research more info. If I had the forgies & multi-layer gasket.....bost would be never a prob!

Just a recap:

These are the areas I've focused on with Jamie (workshop guy responsible):

Turbo extra specs:
Billet compressor wheel (lighter alloy as opposed to cast metal) = quicker spool
Ceramic bearings (as opposed to Garrett plastic bearing case that can melt) = can handle more/prolonged heat
Smaller exhaust housing (A/R) again for quicker spool time (more low-end response/power)

Turbo Exhaust Manifold:
Steampipe 16guage tig-welded with external wastegate = quicker spool & more flow volume

Inlet Manifold:
More precise gas flow & altered volume

so I keep going........:o

NaughtyGT
13-08-2010, 03:11 PM
The inlet Manifold build with custom Boxy Plenum has been concerning me a bit until I spoke again with Jamie from JD Custom here in Mornington. Once the manifold is made they do a bench flow test to make sure it's all flowing even. Apparently he has made heaps of Supra manifolds the same way. He gets the Plenums made up with JD Custom in raised machined writing in top. Too bad if you wanted to remain stealth :eek:

Mr Turbo in Sydney have begun makng custom turbo :D Finally I'm starting to believe in this thing :cool:

NaughtyGT
19-08-2010, 07:31 AM
Decided to raise the boost in increments when we, eventually do get to tune car :rolleyes: Initially do a run @ 10psi using a 45mm external wastegate then @ 15psi @ see how she fairs & what hp we can achieve @ this boost. As I've said before, hp will be down due to small turbine housing but the trade off is quicker low down response so I can live with that :D I won't be running a BOV as the auto's stalled @ 2300-2500rpm so unlike manual gear changes where you would definitely run a BOV, gear change will be pretty much instantaneous & BOV in this case would be for the wank effect only. Back pressure will be negligible & the large wastegate will do that job well. Also the larger comp wheel ensure large volume of airflow & counter the back pressure anyway. All in the set up @ this stage.

Also @ this stage I think I'll call it a day @ 15psi for reliability purposes more than anything. The LPG will work in my advantage in this area with it's higher octane ability however, this hp will be a big enough shock I think for the stock car including running gear, brakes, suspension per se.

The MT8 has to be made up especially & will be a few weeks wait bugger it. Hopefully there is enough to be done in the meantime with fabrication anyway?

P.S. I may still run a BOV. Plumbed back though but awaiting workshops call

NaughtyGT
23-08-2010, 09:18 AM
Just an important note I'd like to make when plumbing IC piping. Ensure you butt pipes together as close as you possibly can, avoiding too much gap between piping taken up by joiners ie: clamp joins close to each other to eliminate vacuum on joins caused by the sucking action of compressor wheel on the IC, especially with silicone joiners.

If silicone joins suck in too far, effectively narrowing the diameter & thus create a bottle-neck in the flow, this can cause 'boost creep' & resulting increased heat/damage to turbo &/or engine!

Even better! Don't use silicone joiners but heavy duty cotton-threaded rubber hosing ;)

Mad Mat
23-08-2010, 09:34 AM
nice write up......

nut there is still one thing missing..

where is the update pictures lol ;)

NaughtyGT
23-08-2010, 01:10 PM
nice write up......

nut there is still one thing missing..

where is the update pictures lol ;)

Hey Mat :)

none unfortunately. Cause' car is @ workshop & not much of anything is complete. Manifolds are still being made so this holds everything up damit :(

Another important point I found was when building a car to run a certain output such as you build an engine to a certain hp rating say 250. Your worried though now as to whether or not the drive chain will cope? Will something brake with the extra hp output?

I've been going down the wrong path & maybe others have/are? I was thinking about traction. I don't want wheels to light up too easy, drawing attention from the leaches etc. BUT. While your figiting around making sure the wheels will GRIP.....you are in actual fact forcing the car to stress the drive chain, instead of allowing slippage, you are in risk of breaking something. If you allow tyres to spin a bit. You are taking the strain off the driveline. This especially goes for manual transmission!

This is why you use a stall converter in an aoto so it acts kinda like a 'cushion'.

To put it into perspective. With a drag car. You don't want slippage. Instead you want traction. Some even screw tyres to the rims so they won't slip on rim. BUT when you do this you ENSURE your drive chain is built strong to handle the power. To HOLD it back. If you don't something will break. Tailshaft, box?

What's this remind you of concerning the 4WD G series boxes in the BF & BG 323 turbo cars? Broken boxes due to 'launching' & 'traction biting' the bitumen!

Below is a really straight forward introduction to turbocharging that is well laid out in paragraphs for ease of reading :cool: Although it's long, you can right click on link, save it & read it in bits & pieces when you feel like reading more. I reckon it's invaluable to understanding how it all works & you can refer back to it. Want more technical reading than look @ the above writing posted few posts up or google technical questions ;)

http://www.nicoclub.com/archives/turbocharging-supercharging.html

NaughtyGT
23-08-2010, 03:43 PM
why couldn't the workshop have saved me hrs of searching & 100 grey hairs today :confused: wondered why I can't get the lowdown on the GT3540 turbo, thinking the 40 meant the turbine size & that it was smaller than the say, 71 so it would spool quicker yaddi yadda......the friggin 40 concerns the compressor side of things & uses the GT40 front......basically the GT3582 is the genuine Garrett Ford Australia used for their XR6T's & uses the 1.06 A/R turbine housing.

Put simple the GT35 turbo = the GT3571 (10.2mm smaller compressor than the R series) R denotes BB, the GT35R = the GT3582R, whilst the GT3540R is essentially a hybrid GT35R using the GT40 front. Sheesh!!!!

This means the turbo I'm getting is actually a GT35R with GT40 front (comp wheel) but small rear (GT30 54mm turbine wheel) as opposed to 68mm in the GT3582R, the GT40 rear wheel is 77mm.....oh dear hands to the forehead again :o

Here is a bit of info comparing the different top brand turbos: Mine is the last one (Billet)

HKS GT3040:
Compressor Wheel:
50 trim GT40, Inducer 58mm, Exducer 82mm.
Turbine:
84 trim GT30, Inducer 60mm, Exducer 55mm, Material GMR.
Core & bearing system:
Cast iron core, Twin Steel ball bearings, Phenolic (Plastic) bearing cage’s.

Garrett GT3040R:
Compressor Wheel:
56 trim GT40, Inducer 61.2mm, Exducer 82mm.
Turbine:
84 trim GT30, Inducer 60mm, Exducer 55mm, Material GMR.
Core & bearing system:
Cast iron core, Twin Steel ball bearings, Phenolic (Plastic) bearing cage’s.

Billet R-GT3:
Compressor Wheel:
The Billet R compressor wheel is a tweaked version of the above compressor wheels.
Billet-R 54 trim Inducer 60.2mm Exducer 82mm.
Billet-R 52 trim Inducer 59mm Exducer 82mm.
Billet-R 50 trim Inducer 58mm Exducer 82mm.
Turbine:
Billet-GT3. Inducer 65mm, Exducer 56.6mm, Material Inconel.
Core & bearing system:
Anodized billet aluminium core & back plate, Twin full complement silicon nitride (Ceramic) ball bearings (No bearing cage)

NaughtyGT
23-08-2010, 05:47 PM
I've only just realised something about these blasted GT turbos. Prior to later models in the GT series. They offered hybrid, mismatched models such as 3040 & 3540 with the intent of having a larger compressor wheel & smaller turbine wheel. As I've alluded to in bove post right?

So, I probably would've been better getting the flamin' GT3040R having known all this earlier. Then I would've ended up with a GT35 comp wheel & a GT30 turbine wheel, which was in fact what I was after & thought I was getting in the first place bugger it :( Wouldn't that **** ya? Unless the engine & more specifically the head can flow the extra air that the larger comp wheel produces?

Mad Mat
23-08-2010, 06:14 PM
i think u have fould ur calling mate.. ur just full of info hey :)

sorry to here about the turbo miss match... but chin up :) and just wait till she is finished.. and see..

NaughtyGT
23-08-2010, 06:33 PM
i think u have fould ur calling mate.. ur just full of info hey :)

sorry to here about the turbo miss match... but chin up :) and just wait till she is finished.. and see..

haha thanks Mat. Think when your pushed to have someone work on ya car & you really can't do the work yourself you get a little paranoid & as you search & learn, things pop up that you prolly never would have bothered with if you weren't spending the big doe & it's a build not very common?

There are a few petrol head OS guys that know their stuff & certainly help but this just makes for more reading lol. I did get caught out with this turbo sizing/numbers bit. Maybe workshop bloke knew what I meant anyway cause he kept stating the 30 not the 35?

I'll talk with him in the morning & find out. I think the turbos already made up that's all that concerns me right now. It'll work out it just shuts ya that's all.

NaughtyGT
24-08-2010, 11:31 AM
......after speaking with Mr Turbo, who put my turbo together, turns out this billet GT3540R is nothing more than a GT3582R Garrett although, spec-for-spec, slight trim difference plus mine uses the better parts in the install:o

All that crap on the net for nothing:mad:

I think as I've mentioned previously. What this essentially equates to is a big-ass blower that spools like a smaller blower yet, powers like a bastard! It's not a GT40 comp wheel at all! That would be up the shat with silly lag & only good up top for drags etc.....not what I'm after @ all. God no!

Mr Turbo Specs are:
Compressor - Wheel 82mm/56 Trim .70 A/R (farkin, huge :eek:)
Turbine - Wheel 68mm/84 Trim .63 A/R (again, huge :eek:)
*Uses a T04S compressor & T3 inlet flange (I thought T3 exhaust flange myself?)
Rated to 600hp

Garrett trims may be a little different?

Mr Turbo reckon the GT30 series is best on 1.8-2.0L engines. Fark :eek: wonder what engines he's talking about? Cosworth? I think these dudes are a bit too extreme wouldn't you say?

again.....I can breathe easy.....phew

Mad Mat
24-08-2010, 12:01 PM
Mr Turbo reckon the GT30 series is best on 1.8-2.0L engines. Fark :eek: wonder what engines he's talking about? Cosworth? I think these dudes are a bit too extreme wouldn't you say?[/I]

maybe he is talkin about the 4g63 or rb20's or sr20's

NaughtyGT
24-08-2010, 12:10 PM
maybe he is talkin about the 4g63 or rb20's or sr20's

from reading Nissan & Mitsu forums yeah probably but most RB25; 25/30 & 30 members use the GT3071 (akaGT30R) with .84 or 1.06 turbine A/R's. A GT35R is rated from 3.0L - 4.5L engines. GT30R is from 2.0L - 3.0L. I know it depends greatly on how heads flow & cams etc & essentially what hp figures they chase for hard core street racing or the drags (naughty fellas :rolleyes:)

Mad buggers I still reckon :p

NaughtyGT
26-08-2010, 01:39 AM
I've decided to take a members advice on another forum who has worked on & owns 4 of these turbocharged 300E's. Concerning the dynamics of these engines & how they work up top & not so much down low so, in order to take advantage of their inherent performance characteristics, I've decided to swap turbine housings. I will run with the .84. & not the .63. I may as well swap it now while it's sitting on bench than later after it's fitted to the car.

I don't want the back pressure & accompanying heat on the turbine wheel & inlet parts that the smaller housing would create. Besides. The better economy & higher hp I think kinda speaks for itself :)

Just so happens workshop has an .84 housing from a commodore they worked on so it isn't a big deal.

NaughtyGT
27-08-2010, 09:17 AM
Just realised today guys. Been 3 months since the donor engine came out of a running car & delivered to the workshop. So basically, engine hasn't been turned over @ all. It still sits upside down with sump off for about a month due to block needing tapping for oil return line.

This is why I can't stand workshops. You accept that their busy. You book car in when it suits THEM. Once it's there. They complain that their busy now & you get farked around as they do a little here & a little there.

I hate engines sitting around. Especially this one. No coolant running through head. No oil moved around the block etc.

Really over these pricks :mad: Long for the day I can here the thing running @ least.

Hard to imagine it's been 3 months since I sourced the engine from Sydney :eek: You wonder why you get pissed @ people :(

....and to top it off they state they want the car outta there shop for the space.......excuse mwa? well helloooooo......get into it then farkers!.........rant finished

NaughtyGT
06-09-2010, 04:39 PM
......bit a narly talk with workshop today. They've done nothing much. Turbo is sitting waiting for the larger housing to be fitted. Beautiful piece fark me dead! Also. Engine is so clean! Just nothing much done as they need the engine in the car before they finish making up the manifolds.

Been researching the crap out of LSD differences, not the drug haha, as I have a LSD up in Q'Land I've been offered that's out of a Cosworth Merc 2.3L 16V job. The ants pants for my car a it bolts straight onto my axle housings. Also comes with a kit to tighten up the gears & so make it behave anew.

Definitely great for traction, reducing wheel spin in the dry but in the wet it'll make the car even more scary. Fishtailing all over the place unfortunately.

I mainly want it for strength as the stock diff can only support around 200hp. Even though workshop believes it'll still be OK due to the auto soaking up some of the punch to the wheels. If it was a manual I'd be stuffed.

Just another decision to make fark it........

ALSO: I've given up chasing the HP target. I wanna know how the car handles boost before I try & reach some figure. I should just let the dyno do it's thing & tune the car, not make some HP rating. Until I know how the engine likes 10psi & what HP this reaches, I won't know what HP I can hope to achieve? If it gets me 230rwkw @ 10psi (280ish on a Mustang dyno btw......US bull**** figures) than good! If only 200? Then I'll increment it up to 12.....14?

Kinda let the engine tell me where it wants to work?

Noble323
06-09-2010, 04:54 PM
Just realised today guys. Been 3 months since the donor engine came out of a running car & delivered to the workshop. So basically, engine hasn't been turned over @ all. It still sits upside down with sump off for about a month due to block needing tapping for oil return line.

This is why I can't stand workshops. You accept that their busy. You book car in when it suits THEM. Once it's there. They complain that their busy now & you get farked around as they do a little here & a little there.

I hate engines sitting around. Especially this one. No coolant running through head. No oil moved around the block etc.

Really over these pricks :mad: Long for the day I can here the thing running @ least.

Hard to imagine it's been 3 months since I sourced the engine from Sydney :eek: You wonder why you get pissed @ people :(

....and to top it off they state they want the car outta there shop for the space.......excuse mwa? well helloooooo......get into it then farkers!.........rant finished


Hey,
question :

why are you abit upset that your engine has not started for 3 months or so ?

is it cause you want it done ? which i understand or is it not healthy for it with no oil ? or ?

just curious - as mind is probably going to sit even longer like 8 months or more to a year . but they tell me its okay .

NaughtyGT
06-09-2010, 05:45 PM
Hey,
question :

why are you abit upset that your engine has not started for 3 months or so ?

is it cause you want it done ? which i understand or is it not healthy for it with no oil ? or ?

just curious - as mind is probably going to sit even longer like 8 months or more to a year . but they tell me its okay .

Sorry if I've worried you Noble. 2 main reasons:

I am expecting so much from this engine so to have it taken from a driven car, nice & lubricated to just have it sit with sump & manifolds off really erks me. These engines in such good nick with low mileage aren't exactly easy to pick up. I'm a little paranoid really.

The other main reason is due to what happened to original engine. I know it was abused & all but seeing what electrolysis can do to an engine makes you cringe. I guess I'm over-protective with this engine.

It'll be alright. My GT engine has sat for 7 months so far but I crank it over by hand on the stand regularly & even pore coolant in channels :eek: When you have really rare engines & they're in great shape they should be driven not sitting as a general rule.

Also. Yes I do want them to finish the car so I can take it for some drives in Summer :rolleyes:

Cosmo Dude
06-09-2010, 07:22 PM
I ended up offering progress payments with the HB. Show me some progress and I'll make a payment.
My 'sort project that never left the ground I payed a deposit and went back 12 months later after no progress and demanded 100% back. Did a quick run by last week and five years later the shell is still sitting there untouched.

NaughtyGT
06-09-2010, 07:39 PM
****s ya to tears I know......I paid them for the parts so they would move their asses.....I see what you mean though.

Makes you laugh though when they tell you they want the space (your car gone)......

NaughtyGT
07-09-2010, 07:15 AM
Explained to the workshop yesterday that I want the car back well before Chrissie so I can go away a bit over January in it. Again they stated they'd like the room & it'd be good to get it finished......hopefully they will attack it pretty hard next week.

I just don't want any unforeseen dramas happening @ the end & get told it'll take more time etc.

Still have the "To LSD or not?" saga to sort. My main concern is that the stock diff won't cope with the power output. The auto will calm the wheel spin down somewhat in the dry, as workshop pointed out yesterday but, in the wet it will be pretty scary unless I be diligent to back the throttle off & let the car coast around without boost or little boost anyway. The LSD isn't cheap either :eek: Bargain due to import costs & kit thrown in but still quite an expense!

Noble323
07-09-2010, 10:17 PM
Sorry if I've worried you Noble. 2 main reasons:

I am expecting so much from this engine so to have it taken from a driven car, nice & lubricated to just have it sit with sump & manifolds off really erks me. These engines in such good nick with low mileage aren't exactly easy to pick up. I'm a little paranoid really.

The other main reason is due to what happened to original engine. I know it was abused & all but seeing what electrolysis can do to an engine makes you cringe. I guess I'm over-protective with this engine.

It'll be alright. My GT engine has sat for 7 months so far but I crank it over by hand on the stand regularly & even pore coolant in channels :eek: When you have really rare engines & they're in great shape they should be driven not sitting as a general rule.

Also. Yes I do want them to finish the car so I can take it for some drives in Summer :rolleyes:

Thanks for that lol

yeah cause i was thinking its been (for me) now 7 months engine is kinda stripped and havnt moved any crank, camshaft and no oil anywhere and another maybe 10 months before its altogether and into my engine, and thought if you left it out for a long time something would go wrong or not start when i read your post lol

Well honestly champ i hope you get the car on the road and no rush jobs is made - thats probably the worst.

NaughtyGT
08-09-2010, 06:59 AM
Well honestly champ i hope you get the car on the road and no rush jobs is made - thats probably the worst.

It's their hypocrisy that erks me the most. Complain about the car taking up space yet they havn't even tapped the block net alone put the engine in bay :eek:

They can't make the manifolds until engine is in cause' they want to get them fitting right the first time.........heeeelloooooo :eek:.......their the ones' taking all this work on while my car sits idle underneath another's car on the hoist.

They couldn't be bothered charging my battery though I've asked them twice. New turbos' just sitting in bay facing the door.

He knows his **** this guy but hopeless @ organising his time. Took too much work on @ once the toss!

Tbh, your all too typical workshop ethic. Couldn't give a fark about customers' gear. Just work on stuff & that's that........wreckers!!!! :eek: don't get me stated on these bums! Had to drive 4hr round trip to demand a cheque off this Abdul cnut yesterday. More of my time & energy wasted. If I added up all the time/stress/$$$ this turkeys' cost me. All I managed to pilfa from him was a spare starter motor :D Fark him :mad: I was gnna kill the prick before long :)

Have I learned some valuable lessons over the past year or what?

NaughtyGT
09-09-2010, 06:38 AM
Picked up cheque from "Ali farkin' Abdul" the cnut Tuesday. Cashed it yesterday. Now he's out f my life the weed......$2100 owed since June! I had to tread lightly so he'd drop the offer for a store credit. These cnuts don't care about anyone elses welfare as they have no heart. Just watch what line of people you do business with folk. Don't wanna see others go through the crap I had to endure :(

Anyway. Hopefully workshop will have some major stuff done by end of next week.

Again. This is why I normally work on my own cars. I'll be doing all the work on the 323 that's for farkin sure ;)

NaughtyGT
09-09-2010, 11:47 AM
Below is a very well layed out article with FAQ's listed regarding Turbos & their associated bolt ons ie: wastegates, boost controllers, as well as info regarding Intercoolers, knock sensors & fuel octane explained:

http://www.turbobygarrett.com/turbobygarrett/tech_center/faqs.html

NaughtyGT
01-11-2010, 05:58 PM
Just a bit of an update on my very near future plans:

Workshop will be mounting TB/Mixer underneath the custom Plenum, in the middle to ensure LPG vapour spreads evenly across all pots. If it was injected, he would have run it in front of first cylinder as was originally planned & what most have done also. LPG changes everything though I guess.

This means the tb will be upside down & feed downwards & then turns toward intercooler via a half-horse shoe bend.

Their still busy mind you the sods. Oh well, more time to put away for other stuff like the springs (all need replacing as they were cut by previous owner ) & possible brake upgrade? Will see how current set up works when I get to drive it though first. __________________

Planning out mods I want to do soon whilst I'm awaiting return of car from workshop along with mods I want to get stuck into once car comes home from workshop.

While I'm waiting I wanna remove grill from bonnet & paint it up satin black. If it looks the part then look at powder-coating it along with perhaps wheel centres? Also paint the boot strip holding rear license plate lights on matching satin black along with the boot star emblem.

First thing I want to definitely tackle once it's home is engine bay heat. This includes heat wrapping the inlet runners & custom extractors. Probably getting a Turbo blanket. Tastefully cutting into front bar & inserting mesh, painting mesh black. I want to avoid bonnet scoops to let air into bay as I don't want to draw attention at this stage.

Also. Looking at a set of 18 x 8" BBS lookalikes. Only reason is they are "brand new" being sold privately so, very tempting....hmmmmmm.....:rolleyes:

marcs_sp20
01-11-2010, 06:21 PM
You have patience, I'll give you that!

NaughtyGT
01-11-2010, 06:46 PM
You have patience, I'll give you that!

Did drive me mad for a while but now I just accept their slack & use the time to save a bit more & learn a bit I guess. Options are pretty limited for the moment while car's in pieces.

Noble323
06-11-2010, 04:40 PM
Got any photo shots so far or it ? even it pieces ;)

NaughtyGT
06-11-2010, 06:53 PM
Got any photo shots so far or it ? even it pieces ;)


Na buddy,

Will be visiting workshop prolly late next week & will take some shots if manifolds are complete & fitted? Otherwise I just gotta wait :o

NaughtyGT
08-11-2010, 01:10 PM
My new plates that will eventually go on the Merc haha

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/PICT0005a.jpg

Mad Mat
08-11-2010, 01:24 PM
hahahaha nice one man :D

NaughtyGT
08-11-2010, 03:21 PM
all other combos I liked were taken. I can live with these :D

Mad Mat
08-11-2010, 03:26 PM
pitty there isn't a d at the end ;)

NaughtyGT
08-11-2010, 05:09 PM
Next time you think your spending a bit too much on your Mazda. Just check this list of goodies out:

Just going over what car has cost me & will cost me in future to rego stage:

List of things paid for so far

Car = $6400
Gearbox rebuild = $1800
Shift kit = $200
Stall Convertor = $550
Gearbox mount = $50
Coupling = $170
Radiator = $450
Hoses = $100
Engine Mounts = $270
Engine = $950
GT35R = $2050
MT8 ECU = $980
Intercooler = $220

SUB TOTAL = $14,190.00

To pay yet

Extractors = $1050
Tial 44mm Ext Wastegate = $650
Inlet Plenum = $1200
Full 3” Mandrel Exhaust = $900
Dump Pipe = $350
Mandrel Intercooler piping = $900
Wire in ECU = $600
LPG set up = $880
Turbo braided hoses = $350
Fit engine & Trans & acc’ = $700

SUB TOTAL = $7,580.00

TOTAL = $21,770.00

Then Springs = $400?

& perhaps breaks? = 400?

then, heat proofing etc = $ 200+?

Over 22k :eek:

NaughtyGT
15-11-2010, 06:17 AM
These are the wheels I've been considering over last week. Well. Bought em hehe :D They are original German BBS RG2 18"x8.5" ET38 forged alloys weighing 9kg each :cool: It's so hard to find quality wheels with any sort of dish/lip for these cars down here.

Some bugger's stole my idea with the colour coding though :mad: (powder coating I have planned) Oh well, least it shows you how they will look off the car. Only difference is the tyres will be stretched on these to fit under guards. I have to flare them more somehow :rolleyes: after it passes rego

Soon as I get em' delivered from Sydney I can send them along with grill & other stuff to be s/blastered & powder coated

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/0911402002991s0.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/p1.jpg

http://i756.photobucket.com/albums/xx201/NaughtylilGT/18_Inch_BBS_Rims_For_Honda.jpg

Mad Mat
15-11-2010, 11:35 AM
Hey man they look HOT :)

NaughtyGT
15-11-2010, 12:17 PM
Hey man they look HOT :)

thanks Mat :) I think they'll look the part o the ol' beasty. Give it the racey look & get it away from the 'boring Merc' typecast. Would be freakin expensive new so I'm so rapped I got a hold of them