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View Full Version : SP20 big brake kit - Update, date etc


Critter
07-02-2004, 08:38 AM
I have a VERY good contact at Specialised Brake and Clutch in St Mary's in Sydney.

Was speaking with Chris the other night about producing a big brake kit for SP20s. Chris has a LOT of expertise in this area, builds race cars including for Rick Shaw etc etc.

Anyhow the idea is to do a kit that would be suitable for ALL SP20 guys, this meaning it needs to (just) fit inside a stock 16" rim.

Reason: some have stock rims, most have stock rims as a spare even if they run 17s or 18s on the tarmac. It does after all need to fit inside a spare wheel if you need the spare for some reason :)

Will be looking at the options closely with him shortly with a view to maximum cost-effectiveness: strong performance at moderate price and good looks inside all those pretty rims.....

It is expected that the set-up will most likely be a DBA slotted rotor of about 304mm with PBR alloy twin-spot calipers and kevlar (probably EBC) pads as well as Motul 5.1 brake fluid.

Cross-drilling is thought unnecessary, one or two piece rotors amongst the options (one piece cheaper, not much different in performance). An RX7 FD103 caliper MAY be an option. 4 spot calipers are too exxy I think.
Rear brakes? Thought unnecessary but will get some prices on a simple slotted rotor and pad combo. I think just a similar pad to the fronts will do the job.

SO.....
What I am looking for is 2 things.....
1. Expressions of interest in the project. I already have one other party keen.
2. A spare wheel from someone's boot to fit it up to. Would only need it a couple of days if we co-ordinate properly. Why not mine? Anyone who has seen my boot knows why I would prefer not to if I can avoid it..... :)

Zed
07-02-2004, 11:11 AM
Do you have any idea what sort of cost we'd be looking at?

And I'm happy to offer up my spare for the fitting. :)

preeman80
07-02-2004, 12:10 PM
I was thinking about bigger better? brakes.. Since I got my new 18s the brakes just seem out of place :wink:

Nate
07-02-2004, 02:30 PM
Hi all,
As far as i know the suspension in my BG SP is the same as that in the BJ (not sure for SP20's). I am already running 16 inch wheels (see wot i am getting at) so a set of fronts sounds promissing (if i blow a front tire that will mean taking one off the back, putting it on the front and the spare on the back - but I can live with that). If anyone knows if it would be possible to fit these brake to the fornt of my BG please let me know.

Critter
07-02-2004, 02:34 PM
SP20s run 5 stud pattern, does yours?

Cost? that we have to find out.

Zed, I'll pm you moit :) Onya.

dfvadr
07-02-2004, 02:45 PM
hey chriss sounds like an idea there but i would not build up some-ones hopes buy saying im interested without no-ing costs
i have 4 standard wheels sitting here i could even drop one 1 off as i go out to st marys a fair bit

Nate
07-02-2004, 02:49 PM
nup she is a four stud

oh well good luck anyway

thanks guys

twilightprotege
07-02-2004, 06:17 PM
you know i'm in chris :D gimme gimme gimme!!!!

my wishlist : 2 peice slotted rotors up front, replacement slotted in the rear (single peice). definately minimum 2 piston caliper upgrade radial mounted (pls pls pls radial mounted)

TDK
08-02-2004, 12:38 AM
Hi Chris,

I am interested as well.

TDK
08-02-2004, 12:39 AM
Hi Chris,

I am interested as well.

Critter
08-02-2004, 08:09 AM
OK then.

Probably easier then to have Rod drop one by since it is is in your normal run of things. Thanks muchly Zed just the same.

I'll have a word with Chris at SB&C to see about timing so it's not hanging around the place, he said to just give him some notice so he can have the time for it with other things going on.

I'm sure we can have a range of options, say....
One piece slotted rotor + 2-piston caliper + pads"x" + brake fluid = $X
Two piece rotor, same rest = $Y
Same again with rear rotor + pads "x" = $Z
and so on

Because we have a club we are in a position to negotiate with a number of "kits" and I will go down that road with it. If we can start with say 4 or 5 first starters I think that puts us in a stronger position to make that point and it looks like we probably have :)

Will get back to you with progress and I'll be in touch odd12c for a suitable day to drop off a rim. Ta all!

twilightprotege
08-02-2004, 08:12 AM
sounds like a good plan (price structure)

JynX
08-02-2004, 12:39 PM
Would be interested in upgraded calipers for a BA

I have single peice slotted dba rotors for the front anyway and really only interested in a front caliper upgrade.

OK then.

Probably easier then to have Rod drop one by since it is is in your normal run of things. Thanks muchly Zed just the same.

I'll have a word with Chris at SB&C to see about timing so it's not hanging around the place, he said to just give him some notice so he can have the time for it with other things going on.

I'm sure we can have a range of options, say....
One piece slotted rotor + 2-piston caliper + pads"x" + brake fluid = $X
Two piece rotor, same rest = $Y
Same again with rear rotor + pads "x" = $Z
and so on

Because we have a club we are in a position to negotiate with a number of "kits" and I will go down that road with it. If we can start with say 4 or 5 first starters I think that puts us in a stronger position to make that point and it looks like we probably have :)

Will get back to you with progress and I'll be in touch odd12c for a suitable day to drop off a rim. Ta all!

ABC
09-02-2004, 10:04 AM
The BA V6's have a five stud pattern but I'm not sure of the exact stud pattern.

Would be interested depending on $$$ and if they are able to fit.
Will be away for a month shortly so won't be able to give input or anything, but am interested nonetheless :)

Critter
09-02-2004, 11:35 AM
Takes that on board :)

Critter
10-02-2004, 08:59 AM
Latest update....

odd12c is taking a rim to Spec B & C for fit-up in the next couple of days. Onya Rod!

Once there and the fit check to the rim is done I will get my car down there and fit up/offset on car and we will have the options and costings available.

Prolly sometime next week. Will post up the $$ and choices. They should know how that compares to BA front end.

dfvadr
11-02-2004, 01:45 PM
dropped wheel off today he had a quik look said its looking like a 315mm dia rotor

told him no hurry for the wheel have a play so we wait for an out come soon

dfvadr
11-02-2004, 01:51 PM
also that dia is in a 16" rim [standard sp20] so u guys with smaller rims r outta luck but as i see on this forum most poeples r running 16,17,18s anyway
but dont forget ur spare if u get a punture an have to put that 15 back on

rough mesurement puts the standard sp20 fronts at 260mm so a 315 is giving us a 55mm bigger disc thats a lot off extra breaking [im excited lol]

Critter
11-02-2004, 02:20 PM
Onya Dude!

chipa
13-02-2004, 05:11 PM
I'm more than interested!!! gimme gimme gimme!

Critter
16-02-2004, 02:47 PM
Should get a fit-up done sometime this week. Will report back :)

twilightprotege
16-02-2004, 02:51 PM
me likey!!!!!!

ps critter i've heard back from the guy about the cat - will let you know what's what when he confirm everything (hopefully tonight)

Critter
16-02-2004, 04:53 PM
Cool, Andrew!

BigMal
16-02-2004, 05:28 PM
Critter,
Can you ask your friend if he can get the 330mm blank rotors same as Gavsport and race brakes can get.
They are 45mm overall thickness as used on the Lancer's. I already have some twin spot callipers they are
commodore ones but close enough to the PBR. If you can tell me how much for the 2 rotors other places are
asking around $750. As for your 314mm ones have a look at the Mitsubishi GTO rotors they are 315mm by 45mm
thick and 1 piece, also are stock DBA item may save some money for you.

Regards

Mal

twilightprotege
16-02-2004, 08:54 PM
45mm thickness? way way way too much overkill. 28mm thick is more than enough for our cars

JynX
16-02-2004, 09:01 PM
I think mals point was that a similar setup is available on a factory car which may be cheaper to find then an aftermarket setup.

twilightprotege
16-02-2004, 09:07 PM
oh i c

Critter
17-02-2004, 07:26 AM
I'll ask for ya, Mal.

Critter
18-02-2004, 07:30 PM
Latest news.

My car is booked in for a day-long fit-out and set-up of the kit at Specialised Brake and Clutch.

Date is Monday 1st March, the first day they could make available for such a long session, starting 6.30 am (ouch!).

As of then I'll be in a position to supply details/options/prices.

twilightprotege
18-02-2004, 08:46 PM
damn! when i was at competition friction then were only about 2 hours measuring all the front disc and caliper stuff....

but i look forward to the night of 1 march (i'm also starting my new job that day, so hopefully i'll be doubly excited)

Critter
19-02-2004, 11:35 AM
We will probably test fit all sorts of things and then fit mine up to drive out :)

BigMal
19-02-2004, 12:32 PM
Hey guys just to clarify if you layed the rotor flat on the ground its 45mm from the ground
to the upermost part of the hub. The thickness of the working part of the rotor is 30mm.

Best of luck Critter was only pointing out a 2piece rotor is about $500 a pop against a
1 piece at $150-200 approx.

Regards

Mal

twilightprotege
19-02-2004, 12:34 PM
oh ok, so you're talking about the rotor + offset.

BigMal
19-02-2004, 02:56 PM
Yep a 45mm overall thickness as I mentioned before.

Mal

pr1mo
19-02-2004, 03:08 PM
will that measurement effect how far everyones mags stick out after the brake conversion is done??

cheers mike

twilightprotege
19-02-2004, 07:41 PM
not at all

Critter
19-02-2004, 08:11 PM
I'm on the same page Mal.

For me the one piece will do the job fine, money better spent on a decent caliper and pads imo.....

But will try to get kit pricing on as many "options" as is reasonable.

twilightprotege
02-03-2004, 02:05 PM
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

any good news???

Aaron
03-03-2004, 10:20 PM
If the rotor size is carefully specced DBA should have a few options for 4 stud cars etc.

Caliper mounts are the harder thing. Although not impossible, definately a specialist job, but the idea of working out possible backwards compatibility is excellent ;)

A.

TDK
17-03-2004, 08:30 PM
Hi Chris,

any new news on the brake kit?

preeman80
26-03-2004, 02:13 PM
Guys, any updates on this???

TDK
21-04-2004, 03:22 AM
I hope this project hasn't died in the a$$. That would be a shame, considering that there is a quite few people interested.

twilightprotege
21-04-2004, 06:14 AM
from what chris told me, it appears the problem was the price. it was way more than what he was originally told

Critter
21-04-2004, 02:07 PM
Yeah, the cost is pretty high.
The "overtures" were one thing, reality something else.

That said, the big brake kit works very very well and looks as funky as hell.

Price fitted was $1694. This was for 324mm slotted rotors (315mm same price) and HSV Premium twin spot calipers and pads (by PBR) with Motul 5.1 brake fluid. The fitting cost was around $500 and took ALL day (it's a big job on our cars).

BigMal
21-04-2004, 02:13 PM
I was quoted $1700 for the fronts from Racebrakes and $1500 from Gavesport.
I bought some Commodore/PBR callipers a while ago and if I can score a pair of
rotors for around $500 know someone who will make the brackets fairly cheap
so hoping to get it all for about $1000. Still a bit of money to have spare.

Regards

Mal

TDK
21-04-2004, 03:48 PM
Chris, is that $1694 for front and back or just front.

twilightprotege
21-04-2004, 07:00 PM
thinking of good alternative calipers to setup a system with, what are out there? obviously the commondore stuff, how much are the import stuff from say nissans etc? what other 2nd hand caliper options are there?

JynX
21-04-2004, 07:42 PM
Galant VR4 is popular with the laser boys

twilightprotege
21-04-2004, 07:50 PM
i've really love 4 piston calipers if at all possible (that's why i was thinking like brakes from the r33 gts-t etc), but i know the price pretty much doubles for them.

i guess once i have the calipers, a place that knows what they are doing can pretty much make up any bracket required....so long as there is enough increase in disc size (from what the ppl at competition friction told me, that's 304mm discs+)

BigMal
21-04-2004, 08:26 PM
Critter how much were just the rotors ???
These are 324mm x 45mm. Are they blanks with no holes so we can drill them with 4x100 stud
pattern. What was the inner hub size in the middle of where the stud holes are.

Ta

Mal

Critter
22-04-2004, 06:52 AM
The rotors were $295 ea plus GST, they are DBA stock items, pre-drilled etc.
Calipers were $285 ea plus GST including the pads.

Fronts only.

After over 60k the rear pads are still only about a third worn....the rears are basically "going along for the ride"....

BigMal
23-04-2004, 11:13 AM
If they are a stock item what were they off, a Mitsubishu GTO ??
That was the closest thing I could find on their catalogue.
You can get a 330 x 45 blank rotor thats what Racebrakes and Gavsport use.
They use them for an upgrade for the EVO's can you ask your friend
if he can get them I would prefer not to weld up and redrill a set of rotors.

Twinlight,
I tried using GTO rotors and callipers but you only have less than 5cm from
face of rotor to inside of mag wheel. Change to the larger rotors and the
gap reduces more. The 4 piston callipers are heaps wide and not even with
a huge spacer plate could I stop them hitting the mag.

Regards

Mal

Critter
23-04-2004, 12:10 PM
Not sure what they were originally "intended for" Mal.
I'll try and find out.....

BigMal
23-04-2004, 03:30 PM
Thanks Mate, Appreciate it :)

Mal

twilightprotege
25-04-2004, 07:22 PM
cool mal.

btw, you're really going to have to stop referring to the rotors as 45mm wide, i get so confused!!!! esp considering i want 2 peice rotors, so the hat is custom and determines the offset etc, the rotor itself is 315mm x 28mm etc

BigMal
25-04-2004, 09:37 PM
The problem I have with that is that all 28mm rotors are not the same. If
the overall thickness is not 45mm eg a commodore rotor then even if it
did fit on the hub, it would foul against the strut or put the wheel way out
of the guards. Having a 45mm overall thickness means it will sit close
enough to factory on our hub. I dont know about you but to me getting
that right matters a lot. If you want me to refer to it in a AxBxC
measurement then I can. Have a look at the DBA catalogue on
www.discpads.com about those measurements and how many 28mm
rotors there are.

Regards

Mal

twilightprotege
26-04-2004, 08:57 AM
that's the problem. you're talking about single piece rotors, i'm talking about 2 piece.

but still with your measurement, 45mm means squat in terms of braking capacity. for all you know a 45mm rotor, the swept area could be 8mm thick. atleast talking in terms of the swept area thickness (ie 28mm etc) you know what braking capacity the rotors will have....then you can talk about offset later

BigMal
26-04-2004, 10:33 AM
Best of luck with the 2-piece they are around $550 per corner, that plus your
4 spots you will be saving for a while. Luckily Critter knows what I am talking
about. I will use the AxBxC specs from now on so there is no more confusion.
I am talking about a blank 330x45x30 or 330x45x28 rotor with as close to a
55mm centre hole as possible.

Regards

Mal

preeman80
29-04-2004, 09:42 PM
Sorry guys, have to ask a dumb question. :oops: This doesnt effect ABS etc in any negative way?

twilightprotege
01-05-2004, 03:25 PM
not in any negative way no.

preeman80
01-05-2004, 04:27 PM
so a positive way I am guessing?

Cosmo Dude
01-05-2004, 04:35 PM
Any pictures?

twilightprotege
01-05-2004, 05:04 PM
not in any positive way either....sort of.

see with abs equiped cars, in-built into the abs computer is a predetermined maximum deceleration rate, ie the rate at which the stock brake setup can decelarate at a safe rate without locking up etc.

when you increase the braking force, the abs still thinks you have the stock setup and wont stop any quicker than before.....but this is where the big brake setup is better.

because the big brakes are much larger, they hold much more heat and can dispurse more heat, so stopping from 200kph to 0, your stock brakes will be redhot and farked at 150kph (example this is ofcourse) and will dramatically loose braking effect. your new kick-arse brakes mightnt loose that maximum braking force the abs can allow at all!

so summing up? around town at 60kph, you wont stop any quicker, but you'll most likely have a crisper initial bite. driving like a maniac and getting the rotors red hot, big brakes will give you a smile from ear to ear.

SFC01
01-05-2004, 05:24 PM
Are you sure you are right on this twilight? Does the ABS system run off tone rings on the rotors/hubs or on an accelerometer?

The tone ring acts like a hall effect sensor (i think) to get a rotational rate off each wheel. if that rate heads to zero (wheel locking) i thought that was when the brains kicked in and operated the hydraulic circuits?

I would have thought that with the identical tone ring and sensor the ABS system would act like OE.

But then again it wouldn't be the first time that I was wrong (ask my ex-wife!) :roll:

Cosmo Dude
01-05-2004, 05:31 PM
The ABS have both individual wheel sensors and a G-force sensor, I'd hope the individual wheel sensor would correct one or two wheel lock-ups while acknowledging the speed from the still rotating wheels and correct. The G-force sensor would activate if all wheels locked and their was no speed info to make a decision.
When the car is stopped at the lights the brakes are effectively locked up and ABS isn't required.

Just my thoughts :roll:

twilightprotege
01-05-2004, 09:05 PM
yes abs does have teeth like ring sensors on each wheel (is fixed to the hub, not the rotor), but abs is smarter than just stopping the wheel speed dropping to 0.

abs knows that in perfect conditions (surely tested by mazda A LOT) the car can only decelarate at xx m per second. so that's plugged into the abs system.

if the wheel starts to decelarate at xx + 1 m per second, abs (and this is done like 20 times per second), goes ok, that wheel is slowing a bit quick, let's watch it. then on the next 20th of a second it's decelarating at xx + 3 m per second, so abs goes ok, it's locking...and then it releases some brake pressure...and we get that nice abs shudder feeling.

so what happens when we get a big brake system? we can now stop at a rate say xx + 10 m per second. abs doesnt know this, so we're still stuck with xx m per second.

to my knowledge there is no g-force sensor, only that stock xx m per second locked into the computer. and with the stopped at lights issue, the abs system knows the car has already stopped (20 reading per second) so the abs doesnt activate

but like i said, with a big brake kit, we can stop at xx m per second for much much longer than the stock setup.

does that make sense?

dfvadr
02-05-2004, 08:55 AM
guys from what ive been told any abs system has to have a g-force system to work properly , an as for wat ur saying about the computer just reading xx - m that is never the same under different sercumstances thats wear the g-force sensor comes into play
so bottom line is bigger brakes better braking even on abs

twilightprotege
02-05-2004, 06:52 PM
ofcourse xx m per second is never the same under different circumstances. the xx m per second in built into an abs system is for optimum conditions. the abs system then knows there is no way in hell the car can stop quicker than that. have you ever noticed that the abs pulses are much much greater on wet roads than dry roads? that's because 20 times per second, the abs is reading what decelaration rate each wheel is doing. it knows that at 100kph in perfect conditions it takes say 35m to stop. mathematics will tell you how long that'll take. so therefore, why spend time and money developing a g-force system (remember, this has to be extremely accurate) when they can just take speed readings from the wheels?

i agree bigger brakes are better on ALL applications, but i'm just trying to point out the reasons why it is better and not better on abs applications.

Cosmo Dude
02-05-2004, 06:57 PM
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/anti-lock-brake.htm

dfvadr
02-05-2004, 07:11 PM
ur missing the piont here i think as i said earlier all abs has g-force controlling that is what tells each wheel not to lock. not a counter as you have put it a counter doesnt tell weather its a slippery rd, wet rd , or dirt this is were the g-force comes into play
as u no abs is desinged not to lock a wheel so a counter on each wheel will not read until it has locked, ie too late the g-force sensor gets the reading off what the wheel is doing when braking hard the wheel is about to lock then the g-force sensoer sends the signal to the control box telling the brake pressure on each wheel to release an bite thats where the anti lock off the wheels comes into play an the pulsating through the pedal

twilightprotege
02-05-2004, 07:24 PM
wrong.

a counter will NOT not read until it is locked, it reads 20 times per second. when a wheel is decelarating FASTER than what the abs system knows it can do (ie on it's way to locking up), it will releive the pressure to that wheel, way before it even comes close to being locked up. the counter (it's not actually a counter, more like a toothed washer) is constantly reading the speed of the wheel.

have a look at the link cosmo put up. notice it doesnt even say a word about g-force? that's because there is no g-force meter in an abs system

dfvadr
02-05-2004, 07:36 PM
ok ill read through it over the next week or so try an understand it more mean while ill get back too mazda an pick there brains again too seems there is misleading info somewhere

Cosmo Dude
02-05-2004, 07:37 PM
Damn,
If their is no G-sensor how does the ABS know when the vehicle speed has matched that of the road (ie - stopped)?
The ABS is a complex system that uses many inputs over a various array of situations programmed into the unit.
At worst the ABS will work as normal, at best you have one hell of a set of stoppers. I guess it's a compromise, with the big brakes their will be much less fade and more predictable braking

twilightprotege
02-05-2004, 07:50 PM
cosmo, like i said earlier, because of all the readings the abs is taking, it knows it's stopped because since the wheel was moving, it decelarated. the abs knows that if you are doing 90kph and decelarate at 5m per second, you'll take so many seconds to stop. obviously the stopping rate changes and the abs takes that into account.

i'm not sure, but maybe under a certain speed (like 2kph), the abs becomes inactive

but like you said, your last part of your last sentence says it all.... "with the big brakes their will be much less fade and more predictable braking". that's the advantage of big-brakes on abs equiped cars. the rest is the same

chipa
03-05-2004, 01:38 PM
Just been talking to the guys at DBA and their story is that our ABS system (in the SP20's) will automatically adjust to the different braking setup...

Of course they could be wrong, but I'm happy to believe them anyways. :lol:

twilightprotege
03-05-2004, 04:07 PM
i'm a bit skeptical at that. as far as i was aware, the abs system is hard coded and cannot learn, that's why you hear car companies every now and they say that their abs is designed for australian conditions (ie dirt and crappy roads)

Cosmo Dude
03-05-2004, 04:21 PM
It would need an adaptive component due to different surfaces, tyres, shocks, springs, wear and tear and even brake components.
The worst thing about australian roads is the distance, they are plenty wide enough, relatively free of potholes and very few are paived with cobble-stones.

chipa
03-05-2004, 04:31 PM
That could still apply, I take it to mean that the ABS system will simply adapt to the difference in braking power. i.e. so when the ABS is disengaging/reengaging the brakes it will actively learn how to apply them correctly without any adverse changes from the original. As Cosmo just said, it has to be able to adapt to worn brake & suspension components, so even replacements should work ok.

Cosmo Dude
03-05-2004, 04:34 PM
I think 'adapt' would be a better word than 'learn' as every situation will be different.

BigMal
03-05-2004, 09:18 PM
Never having ABS are you telling me that ABS will release earlier on dirt roads
than on normal roads. I can understand that the system would recognise that
if the car is moving that a still rotor means lockup and would start releasing
or pulsing but from that point does it continue to release more from there
or once it starts pulsing thats basically it, ie on or off ??

Ta

Mal

twilightprotege
04-05-2004, 06:23 AM
yep, the abs will release earlier on dirt roads because the wheels are locking up much much quicker. naturally the stoppnig distance will be longer than bituemen.

abs may or may not stop quicker than a non abs car, but alteast you have the ability to steer around problems rather than plowing straight through them. i know i'd much rather avoid an accident than be involved in one

wiredone
18-05-2004, 11:23 PM
so after all that was critter actually able to find out what they are off... so we can all go out and follow in his foot steps... i say lead the way... not everyday someone makes an effort to do a SERIOUS mod to the sp... makes me warm inside thinking me and twilight aren't the only "freeks" around here... lol (no personal offense meant twilight...=)

id love to have a set of these...

we recently did an sp down at the shop that had 18" rims with disks so big they filled them... didnt have the car long enough to find out about them... sad cause they were just ever so sexy... tempted to steal 'em...lol

my 2c... just waiting on specs from critter

twilightprotege
19-05-2004, 06:27 AM
well i am an NA freek ;) hehehehe - i'm now a mod of the NA performance section of the msprotege.com forums :)

i'll definately be getting a brake upgrade at the latest september....

preeman80
23-05-2004, 04:16 PM
Yup, I still need the brake upgrade... Hell my car dont move but still I already think that the brakes looks so smal on 18"s.. hate to think how small they will look on 19" wheels

dfvadr
23-05-2004, 04:49 PM
ok guys earlyier in the post chriss told us it costs about $1750 [or there abouts im guessing here] so that maybe a little to much 4 some people to folk out at this stage
so if you dont mind shelling out that sorta money well contact chriss an let him no, im shaw he will be more then happy to put you in contact with his people

BigMal
24-05-2004, 12:56 AM
The only thing I and some of the others were waiting on was what car that the
rotors were coming off. I dont have an issue with the $1750 but I already have
the PBR callipers if I can get the rotors for around $700 I should be able to
have brakets made for around $300 saving me over $500.

platypus
24-05-2004, 04:43 AM
and i was under the impression that abs worked by comparing the braking rates to each wheel on the same axle, while monitoring how fast the car is decelerating

abs is run off the speedo, and will not be active in most cars below 15-20km

get in a abs equipped commonwhore, leave the hand brake on and drive... the thing shreiks at you coz it thinks your screwing with the abs by locking the rear wheels but only when you get to the abs activation speed

BigMal
24-05-2004, 05:32 AM
Dont think that question is something we can dump on Critter to answer thou.

dfvadr
24-05-2004, 02:40 PM
mal do u no what rotors you would like i might be able to help you at a cheap price
i think the ones critter got where dba slotted 314mm blanks then drilll to suit stud pattern

BigMal
25-05-2004, 12:59 AM
Based on the comments earlier it was either 324mm or 315mm both pre-drilled.
If you can get blanks would love a price. Ultimately I am after the blanks they
use on the EVO brake conversions that are 330mmx30mmx45mm. If not blank
I would even be interested in drilled in that size.

Ta

Mal

dfvadr
03-06-2004, 04:26 PM
today i received this info in reguards to brake upgrade evo lancer 5 studs 320 x 32 x 43.5 plain disc $330 slotted r $380 an slotted and drilled r $415 each now twin piston calipers off a commadore i can get around $170 each with pads for a little more we can upgrade the pads to police pads which r bigger same as hsv, im just waiting for more info on 320mm /330mm by around 30 x 45 there abouts in blanks , in plain and slotted just to see if i can buy them cheaper sorry i took so long mal

BigMal
09-06-2004, 10:22 PM
Is cool mate not like I got a spare $1k anyway. Am starting to think
more and more of just getting the GTO 314mm X 45mm X 30mm
and instead of stuffing around with redrilling just go to 5stud hubs as
my mags are multidrilled anyway. Those rotors were only like $150
each from memory and the money saved would almost pay for the
V6 hubs.. But please any extra info or prices would be appreciated
as prefer to know all the facts I can before deciding on things.

Ta

Mal

dfvadr
10-06-2004, 03:59 PM
my mate got in a 330 x 30 x 43.5 ,5 stud off a evo lancer to have a play with i get it 2morro but seeing it is our canberra cruise i want have time to play around till next week ,

im going to see if the rotor will slip straight on to our stud pattern then i will pull one off my ss commadorre brake calipers off an see weather it will fit an bolt up ,if not how close it goes an how i can make it fit

BigMal
10-06-2004, 10:10 PM
Dont go pulling a caliper off. I am happy to help with the research I will bring down one of mine on the cruise and you can try it. Give it to Mik when your
finished.

dfvadr
11-06-2004, 04:12 PM
ok mal thanks that is a far much easyier an better way to do it we'll work sumthing out as too a cheaper option for better braking

preeman80
11-06-2004, 06:41 PM
Can some one tell me what we are trying to buy, ie company, part numbers etc.. I MAY be able to buy at trade prices. just depends...

dfvadr
11-06-2004, 07:10 PM
wnen i work out the pacage i will an u can see if u can buy it cheaper than me ,who ever can get it the cheapest thats where ill spend my money

BigMal
13-06-2004, 06:39 PM
Preeman80
Can you tell me how much you can get DBA216's in slotted for.

Rod,
The inner hole on the Evo rotor is 69mm, the BA 1.8 is 55mm so is the 2L BJ but
DBA dont list the SP20. It may be similar to the 5 stud BA 2L at 72mm.

Ta

Mal

dfvadr
13-06-2004, 08:20 PM
yes mal the sp20 is 55mm as well with a 72mm centre hole the 5 stud off the evo caliper is the same

mal ur calipers will not take a 32mm disc, the 1 i have here is 32mm an ur caliper will not got onto it, an like sum calipers that open up this 1 will not an is only good for 30mm

so as i see it here so far im looking for a 330mm x 55mm x 30mm ,with a centre hole off 72mm
now the calipers go no where near bolting up with out making up a new mounting system which wont be hard , but you would need engineers then

BigMal
14-06-2004, 07:25 AM
Rod
This is what I have been referring to.
http://www.dba.com.au/dba_catalogue_2004/HTML/pdf/Out/Mazda.pdf

The 55mm I mentioned was for the centre hole not the overall thickness but
that was for a 2L BJ not the SP20. The 2L BJ is listed with a 47mm overall
thickness against the 45.5mm for the BA.

Thats a shame about the caliper. Have you seen the police pads at all. I have
looked at the standard HSV Clubsports and the caliper is the same PBR by
looking at it I am wondering if the police pad may be a little thinner being that
its almost twice as long and that is how they fit on the 32mm rotors.
Here's the holden catalogue as well.
http://www.dba.com.au/dba_catalogue_2004/HTML/pdf/Out/holden_GM.pdf

Mal

pr1mo
14-06-2004, 08:56 AM
i have a mate that works for PBR. we installed my DBA's and the first thing he suggested was a caliper rebuild/upgrade :)

cheers mike

BigMal
14-06-2004, 06:47 PM
So can you get is cheap stuff Buddy ???

preeman80
14-06-2004, 07:00 PM
Mal: I will check 2morow, when everything is open again..

BigMal
14-06-2004, 07:49 PM
All good. Thanks :)

dfvadr
17-06-2004, 05:42 PM
hsv calipars are 4 piston an they have drilled rotors on them , i think wat critter has is the commadorre 1's which r the same as ss an the rotars are dba's drilled to suit

now sp20's have to have a 55mm total depth

mal do you want me to get that calipar to mik or bring it to our next cruise?

BigMal
18-06-2004, 12:14 PM
Think you will find critters are ford pbr calipers used on some AU's and mustangs
here in Aus.

http://www.v8sho.com/SHO/images/cobra%20brakes/96bks.jpg
http://www.springfieldmotorsport.com/newbaer.html

Even in the US though they have moved to the commodore PBR style.
http://cobras.worldwidegarage.com/displayarticle4.html

What I need is a price please for the GTO rotors DBA216 and also how
thick the police pads are DB1344.

Ta

Mal

dfvadr
20-06-2004, 04:58 PM
mal im off to the brake place 2morro ill check out the pad thickness an get a price for ur rotors

BigMal
20-06-2004, 07:41 PM
Thanks heaps :)

dfvadr
21-06-2004, 05:49 PM
ok mal dba216 314 x 45.5 x 30mm thick with centre hole off 69mm 5stud i can buy for $90.00 each
the police pads for the commadorre calipars 55mm more braking area but the thickness is the same as normal pads
they are ultimates an there $110
he give me his 2000 dba catalogue so im going to go through it an try to match sumthing for an sp20

preeman80
14-07-2004, 11:04 PM
Rod,

Were you able to match anything for SP20 from the Bendix, DBA catalogues??

Thanks,

Pree.

dfvadr
15-07-2004, 03:52 PM
to be honest ive been to busy with other stuff an haven't looked any further into it

twilightprotege
19-08-2004, 07:53 PM
how are you guys going with this? you might have seen my post in another thread, but thought i'd see what's going on here.

dfvadr
19-08-2004, 08:45 PM
i scorced the maker off blank rotors but they will not sell them to public
wen i say blank thats exactly wat they are not even the bearings have been machined out i wanted to do my own but no go so im waiting to see the dba factory an see if i can cut a deal with them

im looking at 330 mm dia they come in 30mm thick so to put on the commadorre calipers ill have to machine 1.5 mm off each side off the rotor and make up a mounting bracket to anchor the caliper as the mazda mounts are way different

BigMal
19-08-2004, 09:50 PM
Dont machine the rotors have the brake pads shaved by the 1.5 that way
on the 2nd set of pads will be a perfect fit so the rotors will last longer.

Regards

Mal

twilightprotege
20-08-2004, 06:54 AM
yeah shavnig the pads seams to be a better idea

dfvadr
20-08-2004, 02:08 PM
yer true guys an pads are cheaper

twilightprotege
20-08-2004, 02:18 PM
unless there is some way to widen the caliper???

dfvadr
20-08-2004, 03:49 PM
no the calipar is a fixed width an to machine it would only weaken it

twilightprotege
20-08-2004, 04:04 PM
damn. i just know with the 4 piston rx7 calipers i'm getting they can be widened

Cosmo Dude
20-08-2004, 04:11 PM
The Rx-7 calipers are two piece, if you were to seperate the halves and make a spacer plate you could widen them although it would allow a little more flex in them under high preasure. Probably not enought to fuss over though.

twilightprotege
20-08-2004, 04:24 PM
yeah i was thinking of widening mine, but i decided not to worry about it

dfvadr
20-08-2004, 06:56 PM
with 4 piston wont you have to upgrade ur booster

twilightprotege
20-08-2004, 10:26 PM
what i'll be doing is upgrading the master cylinder to a mazda 929 one and getting a proportioning valve.

fyi the 929 MC is an almost direct replacement and it's 1" bore rather than the 15/16" we have. check out this how to :

http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=72107

Cosmo Dude
21-08-2004, 06:55 AM
I'm guessing that the master is from a FWD V6 HE 929.
http://www.mazda.com.au/articles/images/p929_15.gif
Although if you go by the part number given then you should have little trouble. Cos their aint nuffink impressive about the brakes on my HB :oops:

BigMal
25-08-2004, 11:55 AM
Here are a couple of pictures I found have some relavence to me and maybe to
some others. The first one is a multidrilled rotor with 4x100mm stud pattern this
is legal isn't it ?? If its legal to have multidrilled mags then rotors should be ok
right if they are bolted to the hub and held in place by the mags. The 2nd pic
is of the bracket for the PBR twin piston how simple is that I hope it is that simple
for us. By the way where the hell is hoppers crossing ???

http://www.rpw.com.au/Photos/Brake%20Packages/cefrontbrakesupgraded.jpg

http://www.hoppers.com.au/image005.jpg

Rupewrecht
25-08-2004, 12:04 PM
ah i bet that was done by Hoppers Stoppers in (funnily enuf) Hoppers Crossing in Vic. it's halfway between Melbourne and Geelong

twilightprotege
25-08-2004, 12:05 PM
with the bracket, it all depends on the width between where the calipers connect to the suspension and the holes for the caliper. so just hope there's enough room to move...

i know the sp20 is quite wide, like 160mm between centre holes or something, nissans are all over the shop (the r32 is only 90mm or something). the wider the better to reduce caliper flex. even better is radial mount calipers, but they are very expensive.

BigMal
25-08-2004, 12:24 PM
Having a big difference is good makes fowling of the bolts less likely. The PBR
caliper is very close to the std astina so will be trouble if the caliper doesnt need
to be positioned much away from the standard location the bolts will be right
next to one another.
Twilight if you are set on 4pistons why not just go the RX7 and have the mazda
logo instead of nissan or mitsu.
Dan yeah its Hoppers Stoppers did they give you any recomendations for a
conversion.

twilightprotege
25-08-2004, 12:30 PM
i am going rx7 - was going to buy them today (from a jap imported in adelaide), but the idiots sold them on the weekend (i emailed them early last week saying i'll take them)..grrrrr

so now i have to find others.

a good thing about the rx7 calipers is i mightnt need an extension bracket. the arms of them already come down a lot further than the pbr ones in the picture, so that might make it real easy!

Rupewrecht
25-08-2004, 12:44 PM
Dan yeah its Hoppers Stoppers did they give you any recomendations for a
conversion.

nah, but was going to talk to them.

MRT recommended the S5 RX7 calipers and MX5 SP discs, but i'm concerned about offset issues with them.

at the moment, Rank are getting a damaged strut assembly for me and are goign to make up a bracket to fit S5 RX7 calipers, and work out disc offset etc once they get that, as i'd prefer to be without my car for a mimimum of time

twiglight - dont pay more than $250 for a pair of S4/5 calipers

twilightprotege
25-08-2004, 02:00 PM
rute (hehehe) - i just found (and put a deposit on) a s6 caliper for $250 a pair :D :D :D (minus pins, but they shouldnt be expensive)

twilightprotege
14-09-2004, 08:11 AM
critter - did you have to widen the front track to fit the new calipers?

looks as if i need to widen it by up to 2cm each side to fit the calipers, rotor around the suspension setup and the wheel

SFC01
14-09-2004, 09:46 AM
Widen the track or use smaller offset wheels with judicious selection? I'd be thinking through the ramifications of widening track very carefully in terms of what it does to your suspension and steering geometry as well as wheel bearing/hub loading.

twilightprotege
14-09-2004, 12:06 PM
it's either widen the track or buy new wheels with less offset or make up a custom suspension mounting area thingie (no idea what it's called).

so widen the track is the easy option, and by far the cheapest. i'd widen the track of the rear as well to keep the geometry the same, but i'd have to flare the guards (no biggie)

i'm sure trevor @ brake distributors could work it out anyway

SFC01
14-09-2004, 12:14 PM
I was thinking more in terms of King Pin offset, camber thrust, torque steer, self steer alignment and those sorts of things, rather than the front/rear handling bias.

There is always more than meets the eye when it comes to suspension...

Just playing devil's advocate here... :twisted:

twilightprotege
14-09-2004, 12:26 PM
yeah i knew you were referring to that, was just saying to keep the front rear track the same would be optimal for handling. hopefully it'll only be 1cm more, but we'll see

SFC01
14-09-2004, 12:38 PM
That 1cm could make the difference between stablizing effect under conditions with one driven wheel on a low friction surface.

But then again I could just be talking out my pie hole. :roll:

I guess the point I am trying to make not so much to you in specific but out there in general is that due diligence should occur prior to making mods. [public service announcement mode off]

twilightprotege
14-09-2004, 02:42 PM
hehehe....public service announcement mode off...hehehe

did you know that apparently if you buy blank rotors and drill them to fit your car, that requires engineer's approval? weird...

BigMal
15-09-2004, 09:30 AM
Increasing wheeltrack doesn't affect handling that way the problem with it
is the extra stress on the king pin assembly. Its like a see saw the further
away from the king pin you get the more force you can apply on the king pin
to bend and snap it. Old School you would tub the car so you came in as
well as out to balance out the forces having a strut you cant go in like that.
There is nothing like seeing an old school monaro with 15x10" mags on the
ass running 295 or 305x50x15" tyres :D

twilightprotege
15-09-2004, 10:38 AM
can we strengthen the king pin easily?

BigMal
15-09-2004, 09:27 PM
Not that I am aware of :(

twilightprotege
16-09-2004, 07:18 AM
poo.

preeman80
20-11-2004, 10:54 AM
~bump~

Well, I am now $2000 poorer! just put money down on a brake upgrade with a spare set of rotors.

330mm rotors (slotted and crossdrilled)
pbr twin piston calipers.

will be going back during the week, dropping car off on saturday 27th and will be ready by thursday/friday!

will update as i go...

twilightprotege
20-11-2004, 11:16 AM
nice!

BigMal
20-11-2004, 01:01 PM
Who's doing the work Gavsport or Racebrakes. Gavsports wanted $900
for rotors and pbr calipers thats a fair bit of $$$ for the brackets to be
made up and some braided lines. Hope it all goes well.

Mal

preeman80
21-11-2004, 11:05 AM
well, its the same place as Chris got his ones made up, and I think if you read this thread... his price was $1694

Page 3
Price fitted was $1694. This was for 324mm slotted rotors (315mm same price) and HSV Premium twin spot calipers and pads (by PBR) with Motul 5.1 brake fluid. The fitting cost was around $500 and took ALL day (it's a big job on our cars).

I am running 330mm slotted and drilled rotors, everything else is the same.

Secondly, they want the car for two days, saying it is a big job and 1 day is tough.

Thirdly, the price includes another set of rotors, pre-drilled to suit the SP20. Does anyone else want a set? Surely buying 3 will be cheaper :D

Fourthly, if another SP20 is able to do their car at the same time as mine, the cost will be ~$1450 fitted. (if there is a 100% someone else wanting it, I can postpone/wait)

let me know...

preeman80
21-11-2004, 07:24 PM
Does any one know of "Alcon" that is the next option up, they look really nice, with a big blue Alcon written on them...

only thing I could find was http://www.alcon.co.uk

SFC01
25-11-2004, 10:51 AM
Reasonably big on the global motorsports stage.

preeman80
25-11-2004, 08:08 PM
Will get pictures of the rotors, callipers etc 2morow. I am also going to get the specs of the whole kit.

ooopss. did i say 2morow, i meant saturday!

preeman80
27-11-2004, 05:49 PM
Ok here are the photos...

the Current setup on 19"s
http://www.dv8.com.au/astinagt/current.jpg

the PBR callipers (2 piston 4 spot) and 330*25*55 rotors
http://www.dv8.com.au/astinagt/pbr.jpg

the Alcon 4 Piston, 4 Spot callipers that would run on 343*28*55 rotors
http://www.dv8.com.au/astinagt/alcon.jpg

and as a note.. no i can't afford them! :shock:

preeman80
27-11-2004, 05:54 PM
btw... question time..

looking at the pics on page10

should i paint the PBRs Blue or Red?
i took them home today with me, they will measure and make with another set, once i am done painting I can give the painted ones back...

twilightprotege
27-11-2004, 07:17 PM
i think blue would look best - see if you can get the same colour as the car???

and gee you're current setup looks SO lacking!!!! look forward to seeing the big brake inside those lovely wheels!

arden
27-11-2004, 08:19 PM
How about silver Pree?

preeman80
28-11-2004, 11:11 AM
Silver like the alcon ones? I was thinking get the whole thing red, and notice how it has groves.. well the edges... shine them up, so it will be all red with these edges through it..

preeman80
04-12-2004, 04:42 PM
ok.. news update..

I was supposed to get the car back today, but it is still not ready, needs a couple of hours of fine tuning still. ETA is monday morning/noon finish with a monday night pickup.. Can't wait, haven't driven for over a week now..

hope its all good! will post pics after I get it. :D

FAT SP
15-12-2004, 12:57 PM
Im new here in the forum but a very close friend of mine Kevin Gavin actually owns specialised brake & clutch services ( gavsport ). he actually done all my clutches and brakes for my ex race car. Is a good bloke. He isnt cheap retail but he does very good work.

preeman80
15-12-2004, 09:46 PM
Good to hear FAT SP, tell Kevin, I love the stopping power, and yes I am coming back to get my back brakes fixed up! 315mm as he suggested and I would love to get them in slotted as well! :D

I wish he was cheaper! :shock: but its all worth it :twisted:

Have you seen the photos of the brakes on the car?

FAT SP
20-12-2004, 11:35 AM
Yeah i seen some pics on the other thread. I will have a chat to him next time i see him. Did you have to get your guards lipped when putting 19's on?? Do you have any problems with turning? Im looking for wheels to put on mine and i was thinking 18's or 19's.

Sims
08-03-2007, 12:36 PM
I was reading over here => Clicky (http://www.msprotege.com/forum/showthread.php?t=70321&page=8&highlight=rx7+calipers) earlier today about fitting rx7 4 pots onto an SP20. I was just wondering how tricky/expensive this sort of thing is to.

Aaron
08-03-2007, 03:25 PM
Sims,
I have no idead about some of the junk posted in those threads but here's basically info on the RX7 caliper idea..

1. You need to either grind the rotor channel about 3mm wider OR put a 3mm spacer in the bridge of the caliper. The spacer needs to be flat alloy with 9mm round 1mm deep seal groove cut in plus associated through holes etc. You'll need new bridge bolts and pad pins etc. Grinding is the easy way out but does mean you'd meen to shave the pads a little as well.
The metal you're removing isn't strictly structural so it's up to decide which is more acceptable. Either that or find a 22mm thick rotor of about 295-300mm which is the largest diameter the rx7 caliper can grab effectively (supposedly 314mm is the max) There are plenty of 24 and 25mm thick options.

2. The setup described runs custom - or "odd" hats to mount the rotor. I never did see an actual rotor height measurement anywhere. This is the most critical measure as it would then tell us more about how the caliper is mounted. But in general the caliper mounting is pretty close, a few mm here or there really.

3. Wheel Spacers were needed due to the rim design in use. You need ~65mm from rotor face to inside of wheel spoke MINIMUM.

4. The caliper mounts have never been well described, although in theory the caliper will pretty much bolt up the factory knuckle and support a 295/300mm rotor. Some spacing my be needed. Also through bolts will need to be used as the knuckles aren't threaded and neither are the calipers. However given the choice of threading alloy or threading Cast steel you'd thread the steel, or use a relcoation bracket to get things spaced and bolted up 100% perfect. Elongating mounting holes is a dumb practice when it comes to brakes.

As for Cost - if you take $2K to a brake specialist you'll get a great setup with PBR calipers and very few clearance hassles. Plus all gear is new and properly engineered.

If you DIY then you're up for:
* RX7 Calipers (about $250 pair + rebuild)
* Grinding or bridging calipers (unless you use a 22 thick disc)
* Mounting points - probably fabricating locating brackets etc etc
* Rotors at say $250 pair
* Rotor hats $$$$
* Pads

etc etc

It's possible and at the moment at least two people on the forum are working on Big setups using RX7 calipers, but keep in mind after 8 months of research and measuring it's only just getting to the point of bolting stuff together.

All in all you could look at the following ideas that would be easier:

* Use Millenia or Subaru twin spot calipers
* Get new rotors and great pads then re-visit the idea of getting bigger brakes if you can't stop the car after that.
* Pay $2K to get a Professional to do it

Factor about the same to do the rears - although there's plenty of 280-314mm options availbe from Mazda that could be bolted up.

If you've got 4-stud you probably could forget it unless you really want to invest in 5 stud conversions (another $1K plus wheels)

A.

Sims
09-03-2007, 06:06 AM
Considering my current stoppers are brilliant, this was more of a vanity make-over. At the moment, $2k is considerably to much for needless brake bling…