DSLR... Which one?

[xeon8]

Hey guys,

As the title of this thread states, I am in the market for a new DSLR camera to replace my old (well not really old... 3 months perhaps?), awesome:rolleyes: Fujifilm JX370. The reason I ask here, is because there are so many DSLRs to choose from, and I have no idea where to start! I have a budget of around $1200, I could have gotten myself a set of coilovers though :P, but the camera will be more practical haha, I want to get into part-time photography

What cameras are you guys using? The photos you've posted on the photography thread look amazing, really vibrant and full of colour!

Cheers,
Nick

[Ben]

Well since photography is my thing, and you helped me with my website i'll give you a low down.

Firstly, DSLR, go with nikon or canon. Sony are releasing them now, although i've never looked at one, i would still go with the biggies of canon or nikon. Only due to the fact that they have MANY accessories unlike sony. They also support third party lenses such as sigma. I do believe sony only takes sony (like all sony producs do)

You've got a fairly decent budget there. I myself have a Canon 60D which can be purchased for around (Just over) your budget. This is the model before the 7D, only difference is that the body isn't as tough, but who wants to throw around $1500 of camera anyways!

If you want cheaper, but still decent, the canon 550D is excellent for your money. It runs nearly the same as the 60D, just a tad different in specs. All these camera's i've mentioned are 18mp.

Nikon pretty much are the same. The D5100 is fairly identical to the 60D. Although nikon always seem to have lower MP. I'm not sure what the case here is.

You've been a bit vain in what your asking/looking for, but hopefully that covered a bit for you.

[TheMAN]

megapixels don't mean too much in today's world... what matters more is lens quality!
canon or nikon... it's like asking someone whether a holden or ford is better... all subjective! what matters is you go to a good camera store, and you play around with each competing model to get a good feel of them... don't be swayed too much by price... canons always tend to be cheaper anyway, but canons usually have more expensive lower end lenses than nikon because all canon auto focus lenses have built in motors, whereas with nikon, you may or may not, which greatly affects the price

higher end nikon models have a built in motor drive to allow unmotorised auto focus lenses (usually older ones... 2nd hand market is great when you're starting off), which could save money in the long run if you plan on playing around with lenses

as far as capabilities, both are pretty much equal... canons do have more megapixels, but who cares? that doesn't really matter unless you're printing huge posters, and megapixels in all current DSLR cameras don't mean much in terms of "picture clarity", the lens quality does as I already said... in fact, high megapixel cameras with crap lenses tend to produce worse results than a lower megapixel camera.... the only way to get awesome results is to have the best lens on a high megapixel camera... but that's expensive, something in the league of news media mongrels... should we really care as mere mortal casual users/enthusiasts? not really!

as for canon vs nikon comparisons... it's hard to actually do because canon has many more models than nikon... but comparing the D5100 to a 60D is unfair.... they're not even at the same levels! The D5100 is best compared to the 600D in terms of features/functions (trying to compare them only because of the swivel screen is foolish), whereas the D7000 is better compared to the 60D, while the D300s/D400 should be compared to the 7D


but DO stick to nikon or canon for resale value reasons, not just because of accessories.... after a few years, you'll want to trade up to a newer model, and nikons or canons hold value the best... sony alphas are really minoltas, as sony bought them out years ago, so many old minolta lenses/accessories work... but their resale value sucks, so does olympus... it's not that they're bad, but the options available for them are much more limited and the resale value is crap

But be sure to read the reviews out there... check out dpreview.com and digitalrev.com's youtube videos.... there's many other sites out there, especially brand biased ones, such as kenrockwell.com which has lots of informative information regarding photography in general

[chicaboo]

Just buy a Canon D60, that way you get the greatest flash and lens support in the world. And as far as the Canon vs Nikon debate goes - Canon is much better with flashes, and Nikon is slightly better with dynamic range and ISO noise.

[phildough]

I recently purchased a Canon 600D twin lens kit, I am really happy with is so far.
Its a really nice camera to use and has been excellent so far.
I looked into getting a 60D but read a few reviews and found it not worth the extra $$$ over a 600D as I could buy more lenses for the difference.

[Ben]

^^ and the 550D vs the 600D isn't worth the money. They're all so similar in that range that there nearly identical.

Also, never buy a non autofocus lens. Not worth the money and they are practically impossible to buy anywhere these days.

Ed, sony market recently just hit here in australia. Were behind remember :P

[chicaboo]

60D is big and blokey though. :p

[TheMAN]

Just buy a Canon D60, that way you get the greatest flash and lens support in the world. And as far as the Canon vs Nikon debate goes - Canon is much better with flashes, and Nikon is slightly better with dynamic range and ISO noise.

go on a large camera forum, and you'll spark a huge debate on canon speed lights versus nikon ones

personally, I used both, and bounce flash and fill flashes are easier to control with my Nikon D90 with SB800 compared to a friend's Canon 50D with 580EX II... and no, it's not that I don't know how to use them... I know how to use canons good enough after playing around with one

I read from many many places, that nikon speed lights beat canon's hands down, while canon lenses beat nikons in terms of speed

you know, this canon vs nikon thing never ends... I'll just say that both brands are good and both brands have their goods and bads... you give me either one, and I'll happily get some good pics out of them

but... the 60D was supposed to be an evolution over the 50D, but it seems that the 60D deevolved in many ways... the 60D no longer has a magnesium alloy case, whereas the 50D does... I consider the 50D better than the 60D in many ways

[xeon8]

You've been a bit vain in what your asking/looking for, but hopefully that covered a bit for you.

Definitely covered quite a bit! I never mentioned though, I'm after good picture quality (in all lighting conditions) (I think all DSLRs are made for that! :P), I'm into marco photography so I'm looking for a camera with good macro abilty (check my pics on the photography thread for my attempts with my camera atm), as well as other features like big screen, good flash support and interchangeable lenses. I'm still somewhat a newbie as well, so what I've mentioned above could well be describing all DSLRs haha. The types of pictures I will be taking, will be of just general landscape, photos for holidays and even cars.

I've got my eye on a Nikon D3100 at the moment, the reviews seem to be quite positive on it, however I am also looking at the Canon EOS 550D. I might pop into JBHiFi or similar, one day and try them out and see which ones I like.
I don't want to spend all my money on the camera however, I want to get a decent tripod as well as an extra battery, quality SD card and a good quality flash too.

[project.r.racing]

for 7 years i worked with fuji/nikon. my personal stuff was canon. each are just as good as the others.

i will support the 50D vs 60D battles. and 550D vs 600D battles. many camera manufacturers keep undating their ranges. a 350D i have is 12MP. now the 600D is 18MP. so in 6 model updates, the have jumped 6MP.

lenses as edwin said are the biggest investment you will make. so spend a little more here if you can.

twin lense kits offer the best value for money. but be wary for the long distance lenses that are sold with these kits.

like make an example for the 300/350/400/450/500/550/600D twin lense kits. the 18-55mm lense that come with it is a great lense for the price. but the 75-250mm or 75-300mm lenses are the catch. the 300mm lense has a delay in auto focasing and the images may be soft (blurred) when taken. the 250mm has minimal issues with this.

anything over 6MP is just overkill for most people. but all camera are 14MP plus nowadays. a 6MP camera for taking photos that end up as 6x8/6x9s are still sharp (crisp). point is, do not get hung up on 14MP vs 16MP vs 18MP. if you can save $200 buying 16MP instead of 18MP, then do it.

now it all depends on what type of photos you are gonna take, or want to take. cause that will determine what camera and lenses you ultimately buy. if you have no idea what photos you wanna start taking, then just settle for a twin lense kit, and upgrade from there.

if you wanna save money, then buy the body from a australian supplier, so you have a australian supported warrenty, and then buy all your extras from hong kong via ebay or similar, and save s@#tloads.

[TheMAN]

the camera doesn't determine its macro capabilities, the LENS does
none of the consumer grade camera kits comes with a true macro capable lens... you will need to buy one
you need to stop thinking DSLRs as something like compact point & shoot cameras... the lens is a separate, NOT integral part of the camera... so anything you want to do, the lens plays a more important role than the body to an extent.... the only reason you can buy consumer grade DSLRs as "kits" (many times only way to buy the camera) with lenses is purely for convenience, both to the average consumer who won't ever change the lens out for another, and to the novice photographer who needs something cheap immediately to work with.... in either case, they save the buyer from the hassle of having to choose a "suitable" lens for them... the lenses included in the kits are meant to cover a good general range of shooting conditions/scenarios/applications... true professional grade DSLRs will never come with lenses because it is expected that the buyer knows what he wants!

anyway, the 550D will be a much better camera than the D3100, since it is a level up over it after all... but the D3100 isn't a bad camera as a beginner's camera... if you're a quick learner though, you may run into its limitations quickly

[project.r.racing]

if you wanna do macro shots, then buy a macro lense.

[TheMAN]

for 7 years i worked with fuji/nikon. my personal stuff was canon. each are just as good as the others.

i will support the 50D vs 60D battles. and 550D vs 600D battles. many camera manufacturers keep undating their ranges. a 350D i have is 12MP. now the 600D is 18MP. so in 6 model updates, the have jumped 6MP.

lenses as edwin said are the biggest investment you will make. so spend a little more here if you can.

twin lense kits offer the best value for money. but be wary for the long distance lenses that are sold with these kits.

like make an example for the 300/350/400/450/500/550/600D twin lense kits. the 18-55mm lense that come with it is a great lense for the price. but the 75-250mm or 75-300mm lenses are the catch. the 300mm lense has a delay in auto focasing and the images may be soft (blurred) when taken. the 250mm has minimal issues with this.

anything over 6MP is just overkill for most people. but all camera are 14MP plus nowadays. a 6MP camera for taking photos that end up as 6x8/6x9s are still sharp (crisp). point is, do not get hung up on 14MP vs 16MP vs 18MP. if you can save $200 buying 16MP instead of 18MP, then do it.

now it all depends on what type of photos you are gonna take, or want to take. cause that will determine what camera and lenses you ultimately buy. if you have no idea what photos you wanna start taking, then just settle for a twin lense kit, and upgrade from there.

if you wanna save money, then buy the body from a australian supplier, so you have a australian supported warrenty, and then buy all your extras from hong kong via ebay or similar, and save s@#tloads.
agreed... the kits can be considered for beginners as they aren't the best lenses out there... small apertures, slow focus speeds, softer images, more chromatic aberrations, and more distortions, are some of the things you have to live with in those lenses, especially the telephoto lenses it comes with

don't expect to go out shooting 'roos and race cars with those 55-300mm kit lenses... just not possible unless they're stationary

you get what you pay after all ;)

that being said though, given the limited nature of those kit lenses, they're still better than your point & shoot camera lens in terms of quality in many ways... just don't expect them to give you some "22x zoom" or something daft like that... as long as you work within their designed limits, you'll get great photos from them and will be very happy with what you get!

[project.r.racing]

i use the 300mm lense when i wanna shoot rally cars. cause i dont care if it fill with dust. lol

on the old 350D, i'd use 800iso and a shutter speed of 1/1000th, cause the aperture would go between 3.5 and 5.6 depending on the focal length. goes okay. but you need to know the limitations as you said. 250-300mm it has the slow focasing issues, so stay away from that, at it performs good.

never had the money or want to go buy an expensive constanst 2.0/2.8 ap lense. if i made it a business, then i might have been bothered.

[xeon8]

the camera doesn't determine its macro capabilities, the LENS does
none of the consumer grade camera kits comes with a true macro capable lens... you will need to buy one
you need to stop thinking DSLRs as something like compact point & shoot cameras... the lens is a separate, NOT integral part of the camera... so anything you want to do, the lens plays a more important role than the body to an extent....

I'm aware of that, however I thought the actual camera (body) is also quite important when it comes to these types of shots, because of the image processors? Like I said though, I'm still a newbie, so my knowledge of these cameras isn't perfect, however I'm aware of the whole 'lens is the more important accessory to a DSLR' and interchangeability etc, but I wasn't so sure about how important the actual camera body is... now I know!

Thanks for all your replies!

[TheMAN]

no, doesn't matter... and if you were thinking about those settings on the dial knob such as "sport", "landscape", "portrait", etc.... they're just preset settings for people who don't want to learn/don't know how to use a camera... it changes the light metering, white balance, ISO range, and other settings to ATTEMPT to achieve the results the person is after

professional cameras don't have those settings, so it all depends on you manually adjusting each setting, even if you're using auto focus

the only time the body is important is when you're after certain features, such as more control buttons for quick settings changes, extra LCD displays to show you important settings quickly, better/more ISO range, better light metering capabilities, more megapixel, better image sensor, more focus points, more adjustment settings, more lens compatibility abilities, better RAW image capabilities, more/better memory card slots, weather sealing, battery grip capability, etc

for a beginner, these are relatively unimportant

[Ben]

^^ Well it does matter. The better the processor the better the camera...

Thats like saying a processor in a computer is irrelevant.

[TheMAN]

and you won't really see the difference with crap consumer grade lenses

[project.r.racing]

^^ Well it does matter. The better the processor the better the camera...correct. but something like a D3100 will do a beginner just as good as a 60D. even though the 60D processor is 2x as good.

[chicaboo]

go on a large camera forum, and you'll spark a huge debate on canon speed lights versus nikon ones

personally, I used both, and bounce flash and fill flashes are easier to control with my Nikon D90 with SB800 compared to a friend's Canon 50D with 580EX II... and no, it's not that I don't know how to use them... I know how to use canons good enough after playing around with one

I read from many many places, that nikon speed lights beat canon's hands down, while canon lenses beat nikons in terms of speed

you know, this canon vs nikon thing never ends... I'll just say that both brands are good and both brands have their goods and bads... you give me either one, and I'll happily get some good pics out of them

but... the 60D was supposed to be an evolution over the 50D, but it seems that the 60D deevolved in many ways... the 60D no longer has a magnesium alloy case, whereas the 50D does... I consider the 50D better than the 60D in many ways
Nikon's flashes failure is the metering in shutter priority with fill flash. Exposure is not consistent and varies with shutter speed from shot to shot. To me this is a huge sin, and it's something Canon get right. With Canon you know your exposure is consistent one shot to the next [all other things being equal].

As for the cameras, the only other thing I left out is colour hue. Canon are warm and lively, and Nikon are cool/cold/crisp. Nikons also have better and easier to use, more intuitive menu navigation. The shutter/aperture wheels are better placed too. Take your pick, but in his position I would go with Canon due to global dominance. As for me, I actually use Olympus so I don't really care. :p

[TheMAN]

"warm and lively"... you mean over saturated and vivid? Nikons definitely looks more flat and washed out, however to me, the colours are more natural looking

it really depends on what kind of results you're after... for portraits, canons are great... for landscape, nikons do well

you can always adjust the color balance settings yourself of course, but there are still limitations of how much you can adjust

[project.r.racing]

As for me, I actually use Olympus so I don't really care. :pOlympus, Nikon and Fujifilm are the same you know? :p

[project.r.racing]

Just had a browse through JB HiFi DSLR deals section, this is one that I think offers a 1st time buyer best bang for buck:-

http://www.jbhifi.com.au/photo/digital-cameras/canon/550d-18mp-dslr-twin-is-lens-kit-camera-sku-51853/

They also had a Nikon D3100 twin lense kit also for the same money. But you might as well grab the extra MP for the same cash.

And the 600D twin lense kit was $200 more.

[marcs_sp20]

Im going to throw a spanner in the works here and say: Why not a bulkier P&S like a G12 or newer G1X?

Yes I realise you cant change lens and the like, but it seems they can still perform the photography you want to achieve.

I myself purchased a G12 last year as I wanted to manually change settings, without the actual need to change lens'. I however also purchased a lensmate quick change adapter so that I could use the 52mm filters I had from my old p&s, and with the bonus of the adapter, I can use macro filters if need be :)

[chicaboo]

"warm and lively"... you mean over saturated and vivid? Nikons definitely looks more flat and washed out, however to me, the colours are more natural looking

it really depends on what kind of results you're after... for portraits, canons are great... for landscape, nikons do well

you can always adjust the color balance settings yourself of course, but there are still limitations of how much you can adjust

Yeah, but there are times where you desire either colour tone for certain work [if you're not into fiddling with white balance too much]. I've always considered Canon the Sports camera, Olympus the landscape/macro camera, and Nikon the Architectural/Theatre camera.

If you're an image noise pixel-peeper, there's no denying that Nikon and Pentax are the best you can get. Olympus have only just caught up to Canon - YAY!

[chicaboo]

Olympus, Nikon and Fujifilm are the same you know? :p

No one really knows who Oly are using for their new 16MP sensor, but it screams Canon in it's rendering.
Although most think it's Sony sourced? Who knows, but Oly are getting sick of relying on Panasonic...

[TheMAN]

Im going to throw a spanner in the works here and say: Why not a bulkier P&S like a G12 or newer G1X?

Yes I realise you cant change lens and the like, but it seems they can still perform the photography you want to achieve.

I myself purchased a G12 last year as I wanted to manually change settings, without the actual need to change lens'. I however also purchased a lensmate quick change adapter so that I could use the 52mm filters I had from my old p&s, and with the bonus of the adapter, I can use macro filters if need be :)

because they're not true substitutes to a DSLR... they're good as lightweight/discrete alternatives to a DSLR for DSLR owners who don't want to haul all their heavy gear with them

the G12, P7100, G1X, V1, etc are still limited in smaller lenses and much smaller image sensors... image quality still suffers because of this.... those Autoexe pics I took recently? They're all from my P7000, except for the braces all laying next to each other which was taken with my D90... looks decent, but the original sizes had tonnes of noise and because I shot them in raw, I was able to correct certain things to get those decent results... why did I pick the P7000 over the G12 when it came out? Because the image quality was slightly better, the zoom was more, and it didn't have an easier to break LCD screen... is it awesome and a good substitute to a DSLR? not by far! Is it a great point & shoot camera, sure!

[SP-20-DB]

http://www.dwidigitalcameras.com.au/store/product.asp?idProduct=3036

canon 550d grey market version i am purchasing this. as it is excatly the same that website has aus verions and jap versions. look around also has other brands =]

[chicaboo]

What cameras are you guys using? The photos you've posted on the photography thread look amazing, really vibrant and full of colour!

Cheers,
Nick

Getting to the crux of it - that's about all of the criteria you've given us, and that you want a DSLR for no more than $1200. But if you get past the C vs N debate, there are other factors to consider - such as the crop/size of the OVF [this is where 60D $#!Ts on 600D...]. Some people [like me] don't like OVF, and go with cameras that use EVF instead. This is why I brought up flashes, as most people get hung up on the ISO noise and camera lenses. Dam, there's even cross point autofocus points and how many of them to consider, if you really get fussy [60D>600D again :p].

Like Ryan said, maybe you should start your search for everything with a dual lens kit under your max spend and go from there. That's one way to narrow down the competition. Then you can get some hands on time at a brick and mortar store and choose what feels right. But there are only two camera companies known for being really vibrant and full of colour, right out of the box. ;)

[marcs_sp20]

because they're not true substitutes to a DSLR... they're good as lightweight/discrete alternatives to a DSLR for DSLR owners who don't want to haul all their heavy gear with them

the G12, P7100, G1X, V1, etc are still limited in smaller lenses and much smaller image sensors... image quality still suffers because of this.... those Autoexe pics I took recently? They're all from my P7000, except for the braces all laying next to each other which was taken with my D90... looks decent, but the original sizes had tonnes of noise and because I shot them in raw, I was able to correct certain things to get those decent results... why did I pick the P7000 over the G12 when it came out? Because the image quality was slightly better, the zoom was more, and it didn't have an easier to break LCD screen... is it awesome and a good substitute to a DSLR? not by far! Is it a great point & shoot camera, sure!


I didnt say they were substitutes to DSLR's, they are what I said they were, a bulkier P&S ;)

In regards to image sensors, big woop, its a downfall being a Point & Shoot...

For what xeon8 has descrived, he wants to take photos of: "general landscape, photos for holidays and even cars" which the G12 does well, not as good as a DSLR, but close enough...

[phildough]

To be perfectly honest the small improvements the 600D has over the 550D I would pay the extra and at this price you would be silly not to buy it over the 550D.
http://www.kogan.com.au/shop/canon-eos-600d-twin-is-lens-kit/

http://www.staticice.com.au/cgi-bin/search.cgi?q=canon+600d+twin&spos=3

[xeon8]

Thanks for the replies guys! :D

Looks like I'm now heading down the 600D path. I was actually at JBHiFi yesterday, and had the opportunity to test out the 550D, 600D, 1100D (entry-level DSLR) and Nikon D3100. The 600D really stands out to me, however before I actually buy it, I'll wait until a sale or something, that way I can try and get it a little cheaper ;) Yes, I know I'm a cheap @$$... hehe

[marcs_sp20]

http://www.eglobaldigitalcameras.com.au/?subcats=Y&type=extended&status=A&pshort=Y&pfull=Y&pname=Y&pkeywords=Y&search_performed=Y&match=all&cid=0&q=600D&dispatch=products.search&x=0&y=0

[phildough]

I don't think you could beat the prices Kogan has for the 600D at the moment. $819 + shipping
I have become a big fan of the rotatable screen that the 600D has.

[xeon8]

Thanks for Marc and Phil!

It looks like Kogan is the way to go then!

Thanks again everyone for all your suggestions/Canon vs Nikon arguments ;)

[marcs_sp20]

CANON EOS Kiss X5 (600D) 18-55 & 55-250mm Twin Lens Kit Only 800 in stock

http://groupbuy.ebay.com.au/

Get on it!

[xeon8]

CANON EOS Kiss X5 (600D) 18-55 & 55-250mm Twin Lens Kit Only 800 in stock

http://groupbuy.ebay.com.au/

Get on it!

And... Bought!

Thanks for the link, Marc! :D

Will have to get a Australian charger though, as it comes with a US standard plug :(

[TheMAN]

the kit comes with the plug converter
chargers are universal voltage, no need to waste money on another

[phildough]

My 600d charger has a figure 8 powercable that plus into the charger
Swap it with something you have.
Problem solved

[Ben]

Yeah, simple cord you should have 1 billion of.

[xeon8]

Yeah, simple cord you should have 1 billion of.

1 billion and one! haha yeah, I have quite a few laying around the place!

Thanks for the heads up!

[project.r.racing]

Now you got that sorted. Go out an invest in some cheap UV filters. They slightly help with glare. But the also protect your lenses from being scratched. I always get cheap stuff like this from Hong Kong using eBay sellers. You should have 58mm dia threads on your lenses, but bext to comfirm yourself.

[TheMAN]

bad idea
I used cheap UV filters before... they've done nothing but add lens flare, reduction of clarity/sharpness, and bugger up the colours

get a quality multi-coated filter... I got a cheap Hakuba MC filter on my 50mm lens... works great and no noticeable loss of image quality! I got a Hoya Pro1 MC filter on my kit lens... one of the best!

for digital cameras, you DON'T want UV filters... they don't do anything except be a protector and image quality reducer... digital cameras are not sensitive to UV light but are sensitive to infrared instead, unlike film cameras.... the best "clear" filters are multi-coated filters!

[marcs_sp20]

2 Month thread bump..

So for the past couple weeks, I have been looking at purchasing a Canon 550D with a twin lens kit as I dont see the 600D being such a big improvement, anyways yesterday I have been made aware Canon are going to be releasing a 650D either today or tomorrow, so if this is the case I will hold off for another couple weeks and watch the prices drop on both 550D & 600D ;)

http://www.canonrumors.com/2012/06/canon-eos-rebel-t4i650d-specifications/

[xeon8]

I had to return my 600D a few days after I bought it after the screen had died - entire screen turned black after a few shots. Luckily I got refunded! I'm definitely buying another DSLR though, and has to be this month due to the end of financial sales going on. Thanks for the heads up Marc, but if the prices don't drop I'll settle for a Nikon of some sort (after numerous discussions with Nikon users)

[Ben]

Yeah defiantly the prices will drop. I purchased my 60D right when they were all the hype. 600D was released a few weeks later.. Can now get the 60D for about $700 less than i paid...

I dont have a issue with Nikon, i just purchased a Nikon P&S. They are all friggen identical these days.