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View Full Version : "camber kit" - your thoughts???


Nate
12-07-2004, 11:34 PM
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=55436&item=2484432 216&rd=1

Cosmo Dude
13-07-2004, 02:58 AM
The Whiteline ones are the same price, do the same job and after the radiator cap episode I'd rather purchase from a retailer than a back-yarder.
As for the concept? Many people use them and are happy with them but I'm a little uneasy about replacing a 12mm bolt with am 8-9mm substitute as you end up with about half the steal. Even if it is higher tensile that is a huge difference IMO.

twilightprotege
13-07-2004, 06:35 AM
just spend the proper money and get pillow ball upper mounts... much easier to adjust on the fly - ie dont have to take off the wheel to get to it easily

Rupewrecht
13-07-2004, 11:56 AM
easier said that done. I tried to get K-mac to make some for the BAs and they were thoroughly unhelpful :(

BigMal
13-07-2004, 01:43 PM
You only need camber kits if you cant get enough adjustment from the std system
eg when you lower the car heaps. They are a adjustment tool and not a perf mod
by themselves. Get a rear swaybar or save up and get lowered springs will give a
better joy factor out of them :)

BigMal
13-07-2004, 01:50 PM
By the way I have had cambers pins for 7 years now and none have ever broken and
even with 3" lowered car can still get heaps of negative camber for circuit work or hard
street driving I actually had to have a bit taken out as was wearing the insides of my
tyres out from the reduced traction and turbo wheelspin. Cant see the need for camber
tops even though they look real cool the pins have been more than enough for me.

Rupewrecht
13-07-2004, 01:52 PM
only reason i was looking at them was because i needed new strut top mounts

otherwise what Mal said about them being an "adjustment tool and not a perf mod by themselves" i fully agree with

Oracle_SOD
14-07-2004, 12:35 AM
i have the whiteline castor and camber kits on my car...

the camber kit (4 bolts) made little difference.... and i wasnt too concerned about thin bolts cause its 1 out of 2 on each strut...

the castor kit however made a significant difference...

twilightprotege
14-07-2004, 07:19 AM
that's a good point - only use 1 bolt per strut. obviously using two bolts per strut will double any movement because you'd move them in opposite directions, but if you're worries about them being thin it's a good compromise

BigMal
14-07-2004, 11:18 AM
Thats not what he meant. The strut has 2 bolts where the hub bolts to.
The bottom bolt is the larger of the 2 and acts as a pivot point and the
camber bolt is the top one which because of the offset shape when twisted
provides the adjustment. The Bottom bolt is pretty much strong enough to
hold the strut to the hub the camber just supports so being a bit thinner is
not a problem.

twilightprotege
14-07-2004, 11:24 AM
yeah i know, what i was meaning is that you can replace the both the top and bottom bolts with camber adjust bolts. that way you double the movement - ie the top one facing one way and the bottom one facing the other

BigMal
14-07-2004, 12:33 PM
When they are only 2" away from one another cant see that being an advantage.
Again as the camber kit is only to provide adjustment and I can get more adjustment
than I can use even being 3" lowered how much adjustment do you need ??

Maz323f
17-07-2004, 03:32 AM
Two of the guys in the UK have camber bolts on with whiteline the other with the pro suspension kit and both where impressed with them. :)

At 40 i will forking out for a set so i can judge for myself :)

BigMal
17-07-2004, 07:46 AM
If your stock system can adjust to your height you wont notice any difference
because there wont be. A wheel alignment is a wheel alignment.

bj240z
13-08-2004, 10:34 PM
Is it just me, or is BigMal, a big pesimist?? I run camber pins on all four corners and it's helped me alot. Reduced tyre wear, helped with turn in, minimised some tyre roll, all in all I'm very happy!

And BTW MAL!, a wheel alignment is not always a wheel alignment! There is only one place I take my car to have the tyres pointing the right way, and that is Fulcrum. No where else have I found to take the A) time and B) care as they do!

And that be my 2cents! :)

BigMal
14-08-2004, 10:54 AM
Not trying to be negative just trying to set the record straight that camber pins
by themselves are not a performance mod. I have used them for many years
and wouldn't be without them. I agree with you that not all places align the same
that was not what I meant, I take my car to only 2 places one is whiteline
themselves and the other is my local guy. I have the sheet from whiteline and
they align to those specs. So for me there is no difference between the 2. The
point I was trying to make though was that if you can get 4 deg negative camber
from the stock system and then you put in camber pins and align for 4 deg neg
with the pins in where is the difference ??

Mal

bj240z
14-08-2004, 03:28 PM
Nicely put BigMal! I totally agree with all that you have just stated. It just wasn't coming across like that in your previous posts. :) Good to see we are on the same wave lenght :)

BigMal
15-08-2004, 02:13 PM
All good mate. I am a Bastard it is usually intentional which the previous post
was not :twisted:

Mal

ROB-80E
10-01-2005, 08:40 PM
Hey Nate, did you end up getting any??

I have to do something about getting some -ve camber on my setup...car has so much potential to handle or more precisely, steer into corners.

I've taken it to a race and wheel alignment expert here in newcaslte (alot of reputable workshops in the area use him) and he looked at it today and said there's nothing more I can do to get the wheel even a bee's dick into the -ve.

Been looking at the whiteline kit/bolts so far and they are resonable priced. I've been warned away from the Kmac ones. Anyone else have any other suggestions?

Rupewrecht
10-01-2005, 09:01 PM
pedders make em too.

You should look into the adjustable camber tops that k-mac do. heaps of adjustment available then!

Nate
11-01-2005, 10:51 AM
nah i was warned away from them full stop ...

ROB-80E
11-01-2005, 07:09 PM
Who by if you don't mind me asking? Everyone I've talked to said they are fine to use. Better than elongating the holes because that can cause more troubles with going out of align.

Rupewrecht
11-01-2005, 07:20 PM
that's interesting

i tried to get some made up for the BA (by kmac) but they're a bunch of completely lazy buggers.

oh well, if they don't want the business...

boostedbatman
11-01-2005, 10:03 PM
JIC coilovers have adjustable tops :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:

Nate
11-01-2005, 10:51 PM
a heap of rally people ... they said they are fine to use ... but only for light road work ... once you get onto the bumpy roads, even worse when you have aftermarket suspension (stiff springs, swaybars etc) there is the possiblity of them loosening and all of a sudden you have completely opposite camber mid corner when you are fully commited ... as boosted bruce wanye said ... you are much better off (safety wise) saving your $$$ and buying a set of coilovers. i am by no means saying dont investigate them ... if you believe they are a goer then by all means buy em ... there are 1000's of people out there using them without troubles ... but murphys law ... you know the rest

boostedbatman
11-01-2005, 10:55 PM
Mr Bruce is a bit of a slut and is using both though. He uses the bolts to get zero camber with the car lowered and sets the pillow balls for the desired angle. Never trust a Bat

Astro Boy
12-01-2005, 03:20 AM
Nate's spot on the money :P

DON'T EVER USE CAMBER BOLTS :evil:

Picture this: Turn 1, Queensland Raceway, dialed in neg 3 degrees.. limit of adhesion... and all of a sudden BANG... positive 3 degrees camber... and your farked... :P

Its happened three times that i know of at QR, twice the car ended up on its roof... now picture your in the real world.. power poles.. houses, oncoming traffic... not for me :wink:

Either A: Buy adjustable strut tops from either DMS, or KMac, and get castor adjusment aswell (far more important than camber anyway)... or

B: Yes, elongate the top hole in your strut, lean the hub inward, tack weld a washer in place... remove hub.. and weld that bitch in... that's wot i've got, we dailed in 1.5 degrees on both sides... and beleive me.. if it were to fail, it would have failed ALONG time ago :P

sorry.. but the thought of trusting my life to a bolt that must remain at full tension really doesn't appeal to me... if your doing it to give clearance on a lowered car.. fair enough.. your probably into that kinda thing anyway (and that's fine)... but if you intend to use your car.. STAY away...

for those who now intend to bag me out, and try and tell me i know nothing... go for it.. i've said my bit.. its up to you....

ROB-80E
12-01-2005, 08:18 AM
Picture this: Turn 1, Queensland Raceway, dialed in neg 3 degrees.. limit of adhesion... and all of a sudden BANG... positive 3 degrees camber... and your farked... :P

Its happened three times that i know of at QR, twice the car ended up on its roof... now picture your in the real world.. power poles.. houses, oncoming traffic... not for me :wink:

Track racing is not what the car is being setup for. If your racing and you choose the cheaper option, imho, you deserve to end up on your roof. The stress put on ALL components of a vehicle in a race situation is nothing compared to that of a street driven car.

So yeah, me picturing myself at QR at turn 1 is not going to happen. Nate, this is also my reasoning with rally. Of course rally drivers are not going to recommend them because again, they are a race situation and the suspention is under more stress again to that compared to track because of the constant uneven surface.


Either A: Buy adjustable strut tops from either DMS, or KMac, and get castor adjusment aswell (far more important than camber anyway)... or

Kmac don't make adjustable strut tops for the BG astina. They only supply the bolts. Have a look at http://www.k-mac.com.au/makes/mazda.htm
Maybe the DMS ones would be worth looking into...but as far as I'm concerned, it just seems a BIG waste of money to buy a part that is designed to be fully adjustable for something that's basically going to be a "set and forget".

IMO, castor is more important at high speed, again, not street driven. The BG allows for some caster adjustment, so this isn't needed.

B: Yes, elongate the top hole in your strut, lean the hub inward, tack weld a washer in place... remove hub.. and weld that bitch in... that's wot i've got, we dailed in 1.5 degrees on both sides... and beleive me.. if it were to fail, it would have failed ALONG time ago :P
So you've welded yours in?? Can no longer be adjusted? If that's the case, sorry, that's not my cup of tea. Even though I said it's basically going to be set and forget, BUT, what if i change rims/tyres?

Nate
12-01-2005, 09:13 AM
So you've welded yours in?? Can no longer be adjusted?

think rally ... think bush mechanics :P :P :P

Astro Boy
12-01-2005, 10:19 PM
The stress put on ALL components of a vehicle in a race situation is nothing compared to that of a street driven car.

even under emergencing braking/swerving and driving in the wet... i beg to differ :roll:

Kmac don't make adjustable strut tops for the BG astina. They only supply the bolts. Have a look at http://www.k-mac.com.au/makes/mazda.htm

NO.. Kmac don't have off the shelf ones avaliable... if you don't ask for it it'll never get on the shelf....

IMO, castor is more important at high speed, again, not street driven.

so the ability to mantain full contact patch straigh ahead (ie.. braking), and full contact patch under conering load... isn't something you want in a daily driven car... :roll:... castor is more important than camber in ANY car...

it just seems a BIG waste of money to buy a part that is designed to be fully adjustable for something that's basically going to be a "set and forget".

then don't waste BIG loads of money on stupid tyres and rims without thinking about the consequences.....

So you've welded yours in?? Can no longer be adjusted? If that's the case, sorry, that's not my cup of tea. Even though I said it's basically going to be set and forget, BUT, what if i change rims/tyres?

if your having to change camber setting to compensate for different wheel/tyre combo's.. you got issues... either... you know nothing about suspension and how to set it up... or you know nothing about offset...

platypus
12-01-2005, 11:16 PM
has anyone looked at the toe bolts on most cars???

same type of bolts as these "evil" camber bolts....

the toe bolts are going to move on the same lateral movement

BB what was the cause of these cars flipping on their roofs??? i'm quite interested to know what the underlying reason was - did the bolts shear? did the nuts come loose? were they properly torqued and loctited like all suspension comes from the factory?

Astro Boy
13-01-2005, 12:14 AM
has anyone looked at the toe bolts on most cars???

same type of bolts as these "evil" camber bolts....

wtf?

BB what was the cause of these cars flipping on their roofs??? i'm quite interested to know what the underlying reason was - did the bolts shear? did the nuts come loose? were they properly torqued and loctited like all suspension comes from the factory?

as nate said.. the nuts loosen off... and because of the play that they allow.. they flipped around to postive camber under load, causing a fully commited car to have no turning ability wotsoever and subsequenlty hit the kitty litter real fast......

platypus
13-01-2005, 06:49 AM
you do know what a camber bolt looks like?? its a small off centre bolt .... by turning the bolt around, you can allow the bolt to shuffle its gap side hence being able to change the setting - its kinda like looking at a sun and moon gear

on cars such as the BJ series the toe in and out, is adjustable via the cam bolt on the control arm... hmm i should say lateral link - this is where the main bearing of lateral movement is taken

when cam bolts are used they should be properly toqued as well as set in place with loctite, as mazda does when they ship vehicles from the factory, as does the majority of suspension and motor mechanics alike

loctite heavily retards the loosening of bolts caused by vibration of the parts by expanding slightly within joints.... as its anerobic it never actally sets properly outside of the joint




camber bolts are designed to take the stresses across the bolt, but are ineffective if not properly installed (like anything - from speakers to suspension, to a bloody letter box!!!)

OEM strut bolts arn't anything fantastic... and why? coz they don't have to be. they are designed to tie the hub assembly to the stut housing and take stresses slightly over that of spirirted road driving...

trailing arms, control links, lateral links are whats in place to keep a strong grip on the hub, things such as sway bars are optional and not nescessary, but they help as do things such as roll cages


all in all in competiion i wouldn't use them - but for road use (and possibly occasional track use) they are goign to be fine really

Nate
13-01-2005, 09:38 AM
if your having to change camber setting to compensate for different wheel/tyre combo's.. you got issues... either... you know nothing about suspension and how to set it up... or you know nothing about offset...

what makes you say he knows nothing about suspension??

... fair call you know a bit but you are still learning yourself... and dont have the tarmac knowledge of some people onthe site... dont go telling other people they are idiots because of there opinions

greg you have to remember that its a very very very tight squeeze under the front gaurds of an astina ... finding wheels with the correct offset is a problem ... finding wheels you like with the correct offset is a bigger problem again ... and you have to also remember that this car (last time i checked ... excuse me if i am wrong) is running 18's ... thats a fair chunk of wheel wrapped up in a small amount of rubber... i would be thinking those tires are 215?? ... thats about the biggest you can go on the car from memory ... that might mean he can only dial in 1 degree of camber without banging on something ... what robbie is trying to say is that ... if he goes and welds up the 1 degree of camber ... then decides on day to go to the track, with stock 195 rims on, and wants 2.5 degrees of camber ... its no go... it might be all well to go and do it on a rally car but its just not an option on a road car ...

Astro Boy
13-01-2005, 07:34 PM
all in all in competiion i wouldn't use them - but for road use (and possibly occasional track use) they are goign to be fine really

fair call :wink:

and i know what toe bolts are... the rade's got them... i've already had to replace both due to them snapping whilst trying to undo them :evil: the difference with these is that they take no lateral load as the rear lateral link is simply a pivot arm for the load bearing foward one... even when they do take load (like sliding sideways into a boulder at 50k's :oops: ) because of the slot they sit in they'll tend to bend lateral links first... as i found out :oops:

Nate, i'm not speaking from my experiences with camber bolts, i'm speaking from the advice of ppl that know ALOT more than me! For the road, and to correct clearances, got for it.. just be aware that they're not failsafe... that's all i'm saying :wink:

and stop refering to rally as backyard, weld up, fire and forget... i only slotted and welded cause i was cheap and couldn't afford strut tops... there's twice the computing power in a WRC car than there is in F1 :twisted: and do you think if you fogged a ferrari or jaguar through a forest at warp speed it'd stay in one piece.. not a chance :P

Cosmo Dude
13-01-2005, 08:44 PM
I havn't changed my opinion from my post on page one.
Camber pins are cheap and if you use them as a tool rather than a crutch they are worth their weight in gold in a road/race car.
Camber and caster should be tuned to the drivers driving style and these pins can allow you to set the camber for you. Once you know where this is you can make more perminant changes.
A friend did this before having his strut tops bent to set it. Someone else I knew changed the lower arms on his P510 to instal rose joints for camber adjustment and tapped LJ Torana radius arms for caster adjustment on 260Z struts.
I would slot the strut tops up to 3mm to make the adjustment as your strut brace would hide this from view.
So many ways to make these changes but some are serious changes and need people skilled in engineering to help you.

lamby1986
13-01-2005, 09:37 PM
do you think if you fogged a ferrari or jaguar through a forest at warp speed it'd stay in one piece.. not a chance

and what about a subaru in the formula 1? :wink:
you cant compare the apples to the oranges, even if they are both types of racing

I was always lead to beleive, and i am still under this impression, that camber bolts are to change the amount of camber on a particular wheel, which cannot be dialed out with the factory unit. And the only reason for needing the change in the first place was to get rid of the bad, mass produced factory margins-of-error. you put them on if you need it, not to make a "performance" gain, and especially not because it will help when it is being used constantly on the race track.

ROB-80E
13-01-2005, 10:57 PM
Bourne Boy, it seems, as Nate said, you are still learning, like me. In fact, because you tried to make me look like a complete idiot, you inspired me to finally put in some real effort into finding out the definitions and how of the fundamentals of wheel alignment effect handling, steering and tyre wear.

In reference to what you said back to me on the last post on page 2, I am quite happy to say that my post you tried to tear apart, most of the things you said, are incorrect and have nothing to do with what I'm trying to achieve.

It now also seems that you have changed your stance a bit, why is this? Have you done a bit more research yourself? I said that I wouldn't use them for track use, because I am aware of such a thing as CONSTANT REPETITIVE STRESS. How many times a day do you have to emergency brake/swerve? How many times a day do you hard brake and hard corner? Now refer it to a race track as you like to, lets just say a 5 lap race on a track with 9 corners. That's 45 times you are going to be stressing ALL components of your suspention and braking system. Now i don't know how you drive your road car, but I'm lucky to get myself into a situation where I'm stressing my car that much in 2 months.

http://autorepair.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.familycar.com%2F alignment.htm

That url above is probably one of the best, simplest explainations of all aspects. I suggest you read before next time you tell someone that caster has got to do with "maintaining full contact patch".

While your researching, research the fact that I didn't spend big money on stupid rims and tyres....they were already on the car. The chasis setup is the way I bought it.

Sorry to all the other guys to have to do that, but I hope that most of you do read that link if your not sure about steering fundamentals. It sure has cleared a few things up for me. All I need now is a bit more practical experience to setup my car so that I can achive an excellent everyday handling package. As you can see i don't like being made to look like a fool. If I'm wrong, I don't mind someone shooting me down on forums, provided what they say is correct and they can show me how i am wrong. I take that not as an insult but a method of learning. I will not stand being made to look like a fool when what most of the stuff I'm trying to get across is on a correct line of thinking, and someone shuts me down with incorrect information.

platypus
13-01-2005, 11:16 PM
Rob, stop reading my mind - it feels like your invading my privacy!!

Nate
14-01-2005, 01:47 PM
hehe ... james you got a stalker

because I am aware of such a thing as CONSTANT REPETITIVE STRESS

that is the exact reason i wont use them ... because at least once a week i take my car for a flog up mountain roads putting large amounts of stress on the suspension ... actually the whole car ... i am suprized it hasnt died yet... god i give that car hell!!!! go mazda!!!

... but saying that ... these things are designed and approved for road use ... and companies arnt be going to selling a product were they are to settle a $10000 law suit on every second car they fit the product to ...

i wont use them because of the use of my car ... but thats just my opinion... if you want to do it as a day to day road car option ... as you have said ... then go for it ...

Good Luck

Rupewrecht
14-01-2005, 02:00 PM
i've had them for years on my car, and i drive it hard (not just in a straight line). never had any problems with them. and why should i when they're fitted and checked every 5000kms or so (just like part of my servicing)

driver101
14-01-2005, 10:55 PM
and what about a subaru in the formula 1? :wink:

they did, for half a season in the early 90's... failed dismally!!! :P

In the late 80's subaru didn't know whether to attack f1 or world rally.. in the end they attacked both.. setting up STi (rally) and Subaru Motorsport (F1)... i know which worked...

oh, and speak of the devil (and just for the record)... camber pins come standard on some subaru's :wink:

Astro Boy
14-01-2005, 11:14 PM
That url above is probably one of the best, simplest explainations of all aspects. I suggest you read before next time you tell someone that caster has got to do with "maintaining full contact patch".

the url is fine and dandy.. and with the exception of what 'scrub radius' is.. nothing i didn't know... BUT... and if you knew what the 'acutual' effects of caster were, and not just from an internet page designed to explain in laymans terms, you'd know that caster had a DIRECT result on a: camber, and b: ride height...

a car can have zero static camber (that is, when the wheels are pointed straight ahead), and yet have camber whilst cornering because that's what caster does... it allows the wheels to have maximum contact with the road for braking and accelerating, whilst allowing enough camber to corner sufficiently...

you acheive this by leaning the tower backwards (or as its known) positive camber :roll: try it at home.. any factory car has very little camber that way maintaining good braking, yet when you turns the wheels... it suddenly gains camber... why.. cause it has CASTER.... now, do the same with a shopping car wheel (from your know it all website).. and funny that.. no matter where you turn it, it doesn't get camber... :roll:

the difference is that the pivot axis is vertical.. thus having no caster!!!

the setback is that too much positive camber effects a cars right height.. try that at home too.. turns the wheels to lock and notice the car sit up :P (this also has a little to do with KPI, or King pin inclination... but not as much)....

now.. funny how i can quote real world facts and your quoting internet pages.... :roll:

DON'T EVER SAY I DON'T KNOW SUSPENSION!!!

its the one thing i do know backwards... notice i comment very little about engines, or gearboxes, or sound systems etc. etc.. why??? because i openly admit i know very little about them.....

because you tried to make me look like a complete idiot

you did that all by yourself champion :wink:

Astro Boy
14-01-2005, 11:22 PM
I was always lead to beleive, and i am still under this impression, that camber bolts are to change the amount of camber on a particular wheel, which cannot be dialed out with the factory unit. And the only reason for needing the change in the first place was to get rid of the bad, mass produced factory margins-of-error. you put them on if you need it, not to make a "performance" gain, and especially not because it will help when it is being used constantly on the race track.

spot on :wink:

camber bolts that come from the factory have a very slight tolerance.. that is... somewhere +/- 0.5 degree or less.. now.. if it fails at this tolerace, it makes very little difference... but aftermarket ones, with tolerances often around +/- 3 degrees are ridiculous... that means that if it were to fail it could go from -3 to positve 3... and that's not something any factory would ever do....

Astro Boy
14-01-2005, 11:25 PM
i think from memory subaru's are a little bit more... +/- 1 degree.. I THINK :?

they do this to allow a setup to compliment the AWD... but, even at this tolerance, it won't have a drastic effect on a street driven car if it were to fail... but, it does have factory engineering and testing, unlike aftermarket ones....

Rupewrecht
14-01-2005, 11:55 PM
I was always lead to beleive, and i am still under this impression, that camber bolts are to change the amount of camber on a particular wheel, which cannot be dialed out with the factory unit. And the only reason for needing the change in the first place was to get rid of the bad, mass produced factory margins-of-error. you put them on if you need it, not to make a "performance" gain, and especially not because it will help when it is being used constantly on the race track.

spot on :wink:

camber bolts that come from the factory have a very slight tolerance.. that is... somewhere +/- 0.5 degree or less.. now.. if it fails at this tolerace, it makes very little difference... but aftermarket ones, with tolerances often around +/- 3 degrees are ridiculous... that means that if it were to fail it could go from -3 to positve 3... and that's not something any factory would ever do....

define 'fail'

if a bolt 'failed' (became loose), it's going to move say 2mm in it's hole. An adjustable one will be able to move the same as a stock one from my understanding, as the way you change an adjustable one is to rotate it in the hole to a particular angle. If it becomes loose, you're going to notice it - but it's not going to move a whole 6 degrees. once a bolt is loaded up, it's not moving. it will probably move under miminal load, but if it's a race track situation - the driver will know his car and notice the difference.


and greg, <moderator hat on> so you know a lot about suspension. there's no need to be rude about sharing your knowledge. it's fine to point out if people are wrong, that's what this is all about - for people to learn and to share things they've learnt in a friendy manner, not to put each other down.

boostedbatman
15-01-2005, 06:10 AM
Good call
We are supposed to be on the same side

platypus
15-01-2005, 01:17 PM
rupe can't we just sack him??? :lol: :lol: :lol:

and since you started it pay attention to where a trolleys pivot point is, now think of it as a front steering wheel (not the thing in your hands)

now stop before your keys go crazy again remember that a wheel is.... wait for it..... ROUND!!!!! you once again have made yourself look silly, because you didn't think to look at the explanation from the correct angle did you???



you didn't did you???

in case you didn't work it out, its from either pivot point down, or from the floor up - and in comparison to looking from the front or back of a car tyre


not exactly a lateral thinker are you?

Astro Boy
15-01-2005, 02:14 PM
define 'fail'

if a bolt 'failed' (became loose), it's going to move say 2mm in it's hole. An adjustable one will be able to move the same as a stock one from my understanding, as the way you change an adjustable one is to rotate it in the hole to a particular angle. If it becomes loose, you're going to notice it - but it's not going to move a whole 6 degrees. once a bolt is loaded up, it's not moving. it will probably move under miminal load, but if it's a race track situation - the driver will know his car and notice the difference.

true :P it also depends on how the car is loaded up at the time... straight ahead the tendency is to push the top bolt inwards... thus having no effect... but, during cornering, due to lateral g's, the top bolts wants to move outwards, which, if the bolt does become loose, will very easily rotate around and generate postive camber...

and greg, <moderator hat on> so you know a lot about suspension. there's no need to be rude about sharing your knowledge. it's fine to point out if people are wrong, that's what this is all about - for people to learn and to share things they've learnt in a friendy manner, not to put each other down.

sorry dude :oops: when ppl say that caster "doesn't increase contact pact" and that i know nothing about suspension i tend to get fired up.. i know this stuff, and i wouldn't be pushing it unless others could learn... but yeah.. i don't ussually go about it the right way :roll: sorry...

platypus
15-01-2005, 02:20 PM
but people know jesus too, and how annoying can that get???

sorry if i offended anyone that cruises to church regularly

Astro Boy
15-01-2005, 02:20 PM
and since you started it pay attention to where a trolleys pivot point is, now think of it as a front steering wheel (not the thing in your hands)

now stop before your keys go crazy again remember that a wheel is.... wait for it..... ROUND!!!!! you once again have made yourself look silly, because you didn't think to look at the explanation from the correct angle did you???

you didn't did you???

in case you didn't work it out, its from either pivot point down, or from the floor up - and in comparison to looking from the front or back of a car tyre

WTF are you on about??????? :roll:

it doesn't matter where the pivot point is in relation to the datum... its the angle at which the pivot point is in relation to vertical... in a trolley where the pivot point is foward of the wheel, all that's going to do is increase the scrub radius because the pivot axis is still vertically... that's why (in the real world) a trolley still has zero caster because it pivots vertically, they used it to explain a concept that you obviously didn't pick up on....

not exactly a lateral thinker are you?

more than you'll ever be.... :wink:

platypus
15-01-2005, 02:26 PM
rotate through 90degrees is all i'm trying to say - why do you have to take everything as people trying to put you down???

damn ---->trolls (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll&r=f)<-------

Astro Boy
15-01-2005, 02:34 PM
rotate through 90degrees is all i'm trying to say - why do you have to take everything as people trying to put you down???

damn trolls

i don't :P but i've still got no idea wot your talking about???

platypus
15-01-2005, 02:38 PM
rotate through 90degrees is all i'm trying to say - why do you have to take everything as people trying to put you down???

damn trolls

i don't :P but i've still got no idea wot your talking about???

then why don't you be productive and say that??

what part are you having trouble with?

Astro Boy
15-01-2005, 02:45 PM
your entire post :?

Astro Boy
15-01-2005, 02:48 PM
damn ---->trolls (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=troll&r=f)<-------

that's pretty funny :lol:

platypus
15-01-2005, 02:48 PM
see thats not at all help ful is it

did i mention troll? i'm sure i did

any post in particular?

Astro Boy
15-01-2005, 02:50 PM
the one we were talking about :x Sat 15 1:17pm

platypus
15-01-2005, 02:55 PM
never made one at that time :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

Astro Boy
15-01-2005, 03:02 PM
never made one at that time :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

smart arse....

Astro Boy
15-01-2005, 03:04 PM
that's right you live in the land of the pretent... my bad 2:17pm

and i'll be down there tomorrow :roll:

chicaboo
15-01-2005, 03:19 PM
that's right you live in the land of the pretent... my bad 2:17pm

and i'll be down there tomorrow :roll:Don't drink the water down there whatever you do! :lol:

BigMal
15-01-2005, 07:23 PM
Damn Vacations, miss out on all the good stuff :)