Sway Bar for SP20 2003

[preeman80]

Hi All,

Sway bar? rear? front? what options do I have? how much % stiffer should I go? if i go too much.. I will skip not turn, if not enough % harder then why bother?

Help me out please.... I did a quick search and other sway bar talk was about the older astinas. I know whiteline do make them, but any other brands? (they have a rear only?)

[twilightprotege]

there are only 2 companies that make front sway bars for the BJ's

Mazdaspeed, and Autoexe. you can find the prices on the autoexe stuff on www.japanparts.com - pretty good prices actually. the autoexe stuff is 26mm front, 21mm rear. pretty huge increase!

the mazdaspeed is 25mm at front, 20mm at the rear, plus it also replaces the rear subframe to make it stronger.

the stock size is 22mm front, 16mm rear.

i'm in the process of looking into the mazdaspeed sway bar set, but not having much luck.

[BigMal]

Basically the weight. size etc of your car is the same as the BA's so the changes
to them apply to you. Changing the front swaybar is almost impossible without
removing the engine simply replace the bushes. A thicker rear sway will not make the
car skip it will reduce understeer and increase oversteer for the skipping check
your shocks. I did find my standard shocks were very skippy on bumpy roads.

[platypus]

i've got to say i was v. happy with the rear only

but hell go all out, and get chassis stiffening too!!!

[twilightprotege]

on the BJ, the fronts can be changed by removing the subframe. it's a lot of work, but pretty easy really.

[preeman80]

looking at white line i am confused!!

http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/catalogues/WSB06h_full.pdf

looking at conversion chart.. going from 16mm to 20mm, 144% stiffer... (page 7)

parts are: (page 20)
BJII
BFR59
BFR59Z (Adjustable)

whats adjustable? and do I need to buy other parts to go with this??

[preeman80]

twilight!!! I wish you lived in Sydney :cry:

I could do so much more to my car :twisted:

[preeman80]

or just send your brain over !! :mrgreen:

[preeman80]

and no I am not a POST WHORE! ..|..

[twilightprotege]

the adjustable part just means you can make the sway bar act like a bigger bar by just adjusting where the bar links to the strut.

and yes, going from 16 to 20 on the rear is a big increase in sway bar stiffness, that's why i personally would only ever change both front and rear at the same time.

from what i can gather, the mazdaspeed set gives the car an almost perfectly neutral feel. dont know about the autoexe - dont know of anyone who's bought it

[SFC01]

stiffness increase is in proportion to bar diameter^4 that is why you get pretty large increases in stiffness with relatively small increases in bar diameter.

i've got a bfr59z on my car, set on the stiffest setting (there are two alternate mounting holes on the sway bar legs). basically shortening the lever arm compared with oem. bar stiffness varies with leg length^2 from memory (might just be linearly though)

altering the roll stiffness front to rear changes the handling of your car. typically increasing the stiffness bias rearward decreases understeer/increases oversteer tendencies.
obviously increasing front and rear increases total chassis stiffness. it also increases one wheel bump stiffness and makes for reduced compliance. going all out to increase total chassis stiffness (not the monocoque stiffness, but the suspension stiffness in roll) will eventually increase the tendency of skipping as compliance becomes a function of tyre stiffness.

as a first step i would highly recommend installing a stiffer rear bar, and a front strut brace if you don't already have one. it makes an immediate and noticeable difference to the handling and cornering power of your BJ. Pretty small outlay as far as suspension goes as well.

as for the strengthening of the rear subframe, i don't think that is absolutely necessary. i've had the rear bar on the stiffest setting for 30K now and there is no clunking, squeaking or signs of distress under there - and i am pushing the cornering envelope on a daily basis.

[platypus]

i'd reccommend stiffening the rear, only coz i have a stiff rear frame to start with :p

gotta love the sedan handling!!!

[arden]

Pree,
if youre gonna order the swaybar from whiteline, dont go by the part no. on their website. its wrong.

The part number SFC01 mentioned above is the correct one.

[preeman80]

you have it installed Arden? if so $$?

[arden]

Nah I aint got it yet, ive ordered the front strut tower brace from them.
A friend of mine ordered swaybar, got it and found it doesn’t fit, rang up whiteline and was told the part no. is wrong on website!pricewise, around $200.

[SFC01]

I paid $136 for an ill-fitting BFR52, and got the swap/upgrade to bfr9Z.

By the way you CAN get a bfr52 to fit onto a BJII tail. Don't ask me to do it again, but it CAN be done dammit. :twisted:

I think that the bfr52 suits BJI and "lasers".

[platypus]

but i do, cost me $420 shipped for both the strut top and sway bar


will be cheaper if you pick it up from minto

[arden]

my bad , $200 is the price for front slut bar!
expect to pay around $150 for sway bar!

Good ol minto, im just 5min from the whiteline shop

[mrpayner]

but i do, cost me $420 shipped for both the strut top and sway bar

****.. that seems a tad expensive.. how much was the shipping cost?

AP

[platypus]

$20


$156 for sway bar
$207 for strut bar

exc GST

[twilightprotege]

hey has anyone asked whiteline and ask them if they could make a large front sway bar for the BJ's? if not i'll email them. i'm sure all it would require is the car for a day

[platypus]

i'm interested, but broke :roll:

[twilightprotege]

i'll email them tomorrow and see what they say. i'm sure we'd have a good handfull of ppl wanting the front bar. might make it worth their while???

[bj240z]

Pree,

I've done the whiteline bar. I actually went to Fulcrum @ Moorka in Brisbane and spoke to a sp20 owner there. He had tried all the whiteline sway bars they made and found the best one for the car. I now have this one :)

It is the rear bar from the Laser I'm pretty sure the BFR59 that you mentioned above is it. Well acutally I know it is it! :) So yeah, it's a nice setup. I've also gone with Camber pins on all four paws with -1.3 on the front and -.5 on the back. This helped as well. I did the bar first, then the pins after and the pins helped with turnin.

If you go for the bar first and set this up, you won't be dissapointed! If you want to ask anything else you've got my MSN or send me a PM.

BJ

[bj240z]

I've done the rear BFR59 on my car. All is good. Next time I see you on MSN I'll fill you in more. No time now sorry :(

[twilightprotege]

well.

got a reply from peter atikinson @ whiteline :

G'day Andrew,
*
Thank you for your interest in our Whiteline products.

We can certainly manufacture a front swaybar for you and we would require access to your chassis to undertake the development and design etc.

The existing range of rear bars are designed to match and balance the OEM front bar. Fitting a larger front bar will require a new rear bar and we would therefore design new rear bars to match and rebalance the chassis etc.

If you are interested in using your car as the development chassis Andrew, please get back to me.

I bet you didn't think it would be so easy ??
*
You can purchase direct on line using the link below to our secure web store

Join us at www.suspensionparts.info/
*
Regards
*
Peter Atkinson
peter@whiteline.com.au




so. who with a BJ and some sort of aftermarket springs is up for this????? james? zane? arden (since you're so close to the factory)? me??? i will travel down there if no one else is willing to get there.

anyway, if someone volunteers, let me know asap and i will contact peter since i contacted him first. that way he wont get confused yadda yadda yadda

[bj240z]

This was an email that I recieved from K-mac a while ago, thought it might be relevant to this discussion! :)

"For the 2003 Astina we manufacture both front and rear Camber kits. Front is
$130, rear $130.

Kits mount to bottom of strut and allow up to 1.75 degrees of either
Positive or Negative Camber.

We do not manufacture a front top of tower Camber and Caster kit. because of
the ability to fit this simpler/cheaper kit to the current Astina.

Front uprated sway bar is $225.

Coil overs are $1500 per pair (or uprated springs $165 pair - any height.
--
We can despatch your order within 24 hours - Payment may be made by Visa or
Mastercard

Best Regards
Kevin

K-MAC Suspension Pty Ltd
366 Princes Highway, Rockdale NSW 2216, Australia
Phone: 61 2 9556 1799 Fax : 61 2 9556 1507

Email: sales@k-mac.com.au Web: www.k-mac.com.au"

[twilightprotege]

hmmm....$225 for a front sway - i wonder what size they are talking bout?

[SFC01]

Twilight...What is it that you are hoping to attain going to a stiffer front bar? In terms of suspension and handling what are you trying to achieve? Do you have goals in mind, god damn but it is hard to concentrate with that avatar just in view... :roll:

[twilightprotege]

i would just like just get even better handling. i mean it's not bad as it is now, but i'd like to see the front sway bar be atleast 24mm

[SFC01]

how will going to a 24mm bar guarantee you better handling? I guess that raises the question of the subjectiveness of handling.

To my way of thinking just stiffening the bejesus out of the bars just turns the monocoque into a big sway bar, placing all of that additional load on the spot welds holding it all together.

[twilightprotege]

yes i'd say with upgraded bars new shocks would be in order. in america those with the AWR 21.5mm rear bar must change the shocks because the connecting tags or whatever they are called on the rear shocks just snap off

[SFC01]

There must be some kind of change in the legs of the AWR bar as well. I mean mine is 24mm effective on the rear and the connecting tags are fine.

Unless there is something else funny going on with the water over there. Or maybe driving on the wrong side of the road to the cars original intention does something funny to metallurgy...

It would be good if we were able to compare products not on bar diameter only but on actual roll stiffnesses at the wheels.

[twilightprotege]

the AWR bars are infinately adjustable. me thinks that they are just adjusting them to act insanely thick and that's the problem

but you're right. that would be a much better measurement. esp considering you can buy hollow bars, solid bars, adjustable bars, fu bars etc....

[SFC01]

Infinitely adjustable must come with a silly billy clause. I'd much rather have say two or three different settings like the whiteline products.

[arden]

well.

so. who with a BJ and some sort of aftermarket springs is up for this????? james? zane? arden (since you're so close to the factory)? me??? i will travel down there if no one else is willing to get there.

anyway, if someone volunteers, let me know asap and i will contact peter since i contacted him first. that way he wont get confused yadda yadda yadda

Can you ask him how many days would they need car?

[twilightprotege]

yep i did last night. havent heard back yet, but will let you know.

yeah i'd rather have a 2 or 3 stage adjustable myself too. much much less chance of the bar slipping if the bolts are not tight enough

[arden]

Would upgrading swaybars require new polyurethane mounts???

[twilightprotege]

i'd say so - and i'm sure they would make them

[arden]

on their webstore site, they only have bushings for subaru cars!!!

[twilightprotege]

we'll see if we can get them to make them for us if they reckon we need them...

[SFC01]

One would assume that the mounting bushes would be included in the kit, as they are for the rear bars.

While there is a donor car there might be some advantage in the development of an antilift kit as well. May as well kill two birds with one stone, no?

Wouldn't we all love to get some of the power-on understeer dialled out?

[twilightprotege]

yeah that sounds like a good plan to me! i'm all for that!

[SFC01]

I would definately buy an A/L kit were one available.
I don't know that I would bother with a stiffer front bar though...

[arden]

Whats does an A/L do?
advantages?

[SFC01]

Dials out some anti-dive/anti-lift geometry. The story is that on power down some of the wheel load is reacted through the chassis, rather than through the springs, which affects the dynamic wheel loading. This in turn reduces the tractive capacity of the front wheels. There is normally an article on the whiteline web site in the technical area, but it has been removed for revision.

[preeman80]

Ordered the rear sway bar, should be ready in 7~ 10 working days.

[Zed]

Which one did you end up going with?

[twilightprotege]

arden how's things going with peter @ whiteline?

[arden]

arden how's things going with peter @ whiteline?

diddly squat.
sent another email to him the other day and still no response.

[BigMal]

Have you guys tried the whiteline forum on yahoogroups they respond real
quick on their for anything.

[preeman80]

I got the BFR59Z adjustable.

[twilightprotege]

poop. might try emailing him again myself

[SFC01]

Try talking to Wotjek Rogulski at Whiteline. He was the swaybar man when I was dealing with them. I think it was wotjek@....

Good work with the bfr59z. When you get don't be too surprised if you have to massage out some of the mounting holes on the bar blades. - oh and if you do have to don't forget to cover the bare metal with some kind of paint. I have no doubts that you will settle on the stiffest of the settings. :wink:

[preeman80]

okie kidz... the rear sway bar is in, and also at the stiffest setting(?) i assumed that was the first set of holes??

but ya! makes a diff.. :mrgreen:

i thinks, im gonna get a front strut brace and a front sway bar(?).

do you guys think that the front sway bar is any good? (hmm.. better go see if there is such a thing)

[SFC01]

The stiffest setting has the holes closest to the axis of rotation (i.e. shortest legs)

Front strut brace will make a difference compared to none. Not sure how much difference there will be changing out the stock brace on an SP...

[arden]

No front sway bar exists for the sp20.
Twilight has contacted Whiteline about the possibility of them making one for us.
and i have volunteered my car for the development but am still waiting to hear confirmation from them.

[preeman80]

good stuff... are you running a front strut brace? (whiteline)

[twilightprotege]

arden, you still havent heard back from pete?

[arden]

nope, i emailed him rite after u forwarded me his email

[arden]

good stuff... are you running a front strut brace? (whiteline)

I ordered mine from a distributor down in vic, still waitin for it,

[arden]

Ok updatd on Development of matching Whiteline front & Rear Swaybar.

Have booked my car in for 29/30 Sept..


Cost wise, estimated total worse scenario $660 which includes fitting.
Which gave me a shock!!Said he can prolly do cheaper but cant say at this stage.

[twilightprotege]

$660 is great - esp compaired to the mazdaspeed and autoexe bars!

[arden]

how much are them bars?
i should get a new wheel alignment too eh.

[SFC01]

But I thought that if you were the development mule you were the freebie?!

[twilightprotege]

mazdaspeed - about $700aud by the time you get them here. autoexe about $1000

[twilightprotege]

oh and arden ask for atleast 25mm on the front bar

[arden]

crikey had no idea they cost that much.
will tell Wojtek wen i see him about thickness!

[SFC01]

I'd be leaving the sizing of the bar to the experts myself. Nice to have an idea of what bar thicknesses are available in the US but there are some yucky tradeoffs in terms of increasing the front bar stiffness disproportionately. Especially driving on NSW roads. ..|..

It will be interesting to see if there is a mother front bar developed whether or not they suggest another thickness rear bar to get the handling balance back from extreme understeer.

[twilightprotege]

yeah i agree, i was just going off the mazdaspeed bar. it's 25mm (stock is 22mm). the autoexe is 26mm

[SFC01]

Maybe there will be a BFR59X coming soon as result of this. Oooh, I'd be interested in that with only the stock 1.8L front bar to see just how twitchy the tail can be! :twisted:

Starting to realise just how easy it can be to cock a wheel. Never noticed it before the caster mod. But me likey!!

[preeman80]

hold up.. so whats going on.. been outta the loop.. arden, they are taking your car to make a new front sway bar.. not a new rear sway bar?

and a new front strut brace..

cause if someone tells me I shouldn't have bought my rear sway bar im not a happy camper! :shock: :cry:

[arden]

pree.
since theres no existing front swaybar for the BJ,
Whiteline are gonna design matching front and rear sway bars.

No new front strut brace....

[arden]

i thought u knew about our plans in getting whiteline to design matchin front n swears.
thats why i found it strange u ordered the rear bar!!!!!!

[dfvadr]

thats true the number is wrong , an i no critter has them both an he is wrapped in the difference his car is to drive now

[preeman80]

DOH! blah.. guess.. i will have to re-order..

**checks wallet**
damn turbo fund keeps taking a hit! :shock:

[twilightprotege]

still atleast your car will be able to handle the turbo power!

[arden]

Rocked up at Whiteline this morning.
Friggin had dates mixed up, shouldve been 2morrow.
The guy there said they mite look at it today as they have numerous cars in workshop.

they told me it will take around 3 hours to take off front sway bar?????
Is that right???Andrew?

Anyway, it should be all done thursday.

[SFC01]

Haven't done it myself but I have heard that it is a total PIA job.

[ezin]

Just fitted the whiteline rear swaybar, mmm i like, sits a bit flater round harder corners, i couldn really tell if the car felt anymore bumpy cause its lowered allready, but does feel better in & out of the corners.

Its the BFR59 cause it only has one setting, which is identical to the stiffest setting on the adjustable bar, everyone is setting theres up on the stiffest setting anyway so i didn't need the extra holes.

I measured both bars while i was there F=22 R=17
Mazda must have changed the sway bars on the sp from 16 to 17mm

I had a look at changing the front sway bar, I just looks complicated, but is easy with the right tools (hoist, and 4w alignment) would be needed.

If u had these tools i would be inclined to say it would take 3hr to remove and fit the new bar (not 3 just to remove it, thats crap) + another 30min for the alignment. (oh they r designing as well, mmm sorry, yeah more time for that)

[twilightprotege]

probably not that long to remove. maybe 3 hours if you have no hoist and air tools. 1 hour tops otherwise.

17mm rear - where about did you measure it? i never knew about the increase

[ezin]

Measured it at four places with a vernier caliper, is more like 17.1mm. I was rather suprised with the readings since uz all got 16mm ??
Dosent really matter now though cause its in with the new and out with the old.

I do remember hearing about the increase in stiffness from stock when i bought the car, didnt ask anymore about it though.

Anyone want to buy a sp20 stock rear sway bar 27% stiffness increase. $20bucks +postage LOL.

[twilightprotege]

if yours the J48 upgrade? maybe that's it?

[ezin]

I have not heard of J48 model before? build date/differneces??

[Riceboy]

well i just got the autoexe front and rear sway bar in and also the autoexe front and rear strut bar

all in all its ****en good :lol:

but im still road testing it... will b track testing in a months time when SAS are on at Queensland raceway

hears hoping ....

also wanted to ask twig if the connectors from the rear sway bar and the wheel ? how long r they coz they seem to hit my control arms of my rear tyres

so yeah alot of probs with my car since it aint sp20 >.<

[twilightprotege]

basically all of the sp20 sedans and the hatches with the round tail lights.

1998-2001 BJI
2001-2002.5 BJII
2002.5 on - BJII-J48

that's about right anyway

and big thanks go out to arden for donating his car for a few days. cant
wait man, cant wait!

riceboy - how long - i have no idea - just make sure you reinforce the shocks where they connect and you'll be right!

[ezin]

Well the build date is 12/01 so its just a bjII.

[twilightprotege]

well i cant explain the difference in diametre - maybe we all have 17?

[Riceboy]

yeah but its got problems >.<

first of all the strut bar front rubs on the damn throttoel body... resulting in me having to put a pice of material at the connection point and also filing down the throttle body.works good now

rear strut bar u have to get the shields cut and there fore not back trim

rear sway bar is ok but looks like it hits the lower arms of the wheels dunno why

front sway bar hits on something i dunno wat

but all in all it was ****en damn worth it it handles very very nicely

just gotta figure out all these little crinkles then all should b good

less then 70 sec lap time on sprints for sure :D

[ezin]

Yeah, thats after market stuff for ya, nice and fiddly but good once finished.

What do u mean by the rear strut brace sheilds have to be cut???

Its just that i just got a GTSPEC rear strut brace from cork sport and was looking at it tonight and thinking hmmm, I will have to cut the rear trims nice and neat for the bar to fit through (2 point bar)
Any hints would be handy. (sorry bit of topic)

[Riceboy]

when u mount the strut bar there is a few things u have to undo also yeah u have to cut the trims but i just totally took mine out and with the light problem i just hooked up a neon on each side so that when my boot opens green neons turn on :D but **** thing also about having no trims = no parcel shelf >.<

but on the actual strut top there is 2 "shield" type thingys and with mine i had to cut the bottom shield to make the strut fit but thats with mine

i dunno about ur one but yeah ezin i hope ur car turns out good :D

mine is sorta track minded so i take all my **** out

dunno about ur car tho

[ezin]

Yeah in full street trim, (More so for looks) Oh now i remember from when i lowered it, its got those pressed caps (sheilds) on the top of the strut tops to stop dust getting in, but it shouldn't make a difference without them cause there aint no bearing in there to protect like the fronts have. Will have a look at that.

Thanks.

[Riceboy]

yeah with mine it came with instructions on how to cut it and the shape to cut it but im pretty sure ur ones u wont have to since they american ones they prob found a way to bypass it

but yeah the japs are damn annoying !@!!!!

[arden]

Whiteline Update.

Car is now complete with front/rear swaybars
Wojtek says it handles pretty sweetly now.

Total cost = $638.00.

Will be picking it up 8am 2morrow so will give feedback soon.

[arden]

Will also take pictures too. :)

Price also included wheel alignment.

[SFC01]

Specs????

[arden]

Opps, was too excited!Forgot to ask.
Will get details 2morrow morning!

[twilightprotege]

drooooool!!!!!

so lets get a GB together!

[twilightprotege]

1. twilightprotege - gimme gimme gimme!

[wiredone]

1. twilightprotege - gimme gimme gimme!
2. WiredOne

need brakes and hadling badly now.... not fun on boost into corners... nice coming though but you try it in the rain

[platypus]

hmm i'll get back to you on all gb's... just call me boyd....

[twilightprotege]

hey arden i cant find it, but how many did we have to get in a GB to get a discount?

[arden]

Alright,
right now, not that happy.
came out of Whiteline with back tyre flat.
they rang me up soon after sayin they noticed it flat as i was drving off. Of course i was thankful.
pumped it up at servo....it was completely flat...5psi. so drove to work...tyre looks decent.
but i hear a small leak.....so im screwed. Gonna take it to bob jane for patch up.

ok onto the swaybars.

Another BITCH i have...THEY USE THE SAME EXISTING REAR SWAYBAR!!!!!!got charged like full price!
DAMN DAMN DAMN.

Front bar is 24mm. $180 full price. So u guys are lucky there.
So not much point in organising group buy, which they need 10 ppl and will take 10% off.

Results: Bit hard to tell when its pissing down...but body roll is reduced dramatically.
Goes into corners leaner and meaner.

[chipa]

Does anyone know how hard these are to install in our cars?

[arden]

guy was tellin me its a pain to install.
as front control arm has to be taken off.

[chipa]

doh! Thats what I afraid of. Doesn't sound like the front is something I would tackle myself. Probably do the back and then pay someone to do the front for me.

[twilightprotege]

what what what?

same rear bar? wtf?

those farkers!

they reckoned that the rear bar was matched to the stock front bar, but then they make the front bar bigger and the rear is matched to it? wtf?

arden what's that tossers email address - i have a few words to say!

ps - damn screws!

[arden]

yeh my thoughts exactly. Doesnt make sense.

wojtek@whiteline.com.au

flame away.

[SFC01]

You had the stock rear bar on when it was delivered and they didn't change it?

If they have gone stiffer on the front without lifting the rate of the back all they have done is hamper your cornering ability.

Just before we get carried away what other suspension mods have you got? The possibility EXISTS that for your springs only increasing the front MAY have been beneficial. I am in no way condoning their course of action so don't flame me.

Personally I would say that by increasing the front bar rate it would follow that the rear bar rate should be increased in proportion over that of the stiffest BFR59Z setting. That would be my take on it.

Arden I am disappointed firstly that you have been charged anything for them to develop a product which may well sell like hotcakes. To me that is shocking business sense.

[arden]

They used the current whiteline rear swaybar...the bfr59z.
Suspension mods, are Kings Low Springs.

Im a bit shocked they charged me so much for it.

the guy there made a huge deal how much i saved on labour.
and i got like 30 bucks off the new front sway bar. like WOW.
:roll:

[arden]

oh, wot is stock size on rear bar???
forgot to mention they set it at 20mm, not the max 22mm setting.

[arden]

Andrews, found Pete's famous words

"The existing range of rear bars are designed to match and balance the OEM front bar. Fitting a larger front bar will require a new rear bar and we would therefore design new rear bars to match and rebalance the chassis etc. "

[SFC01]

The larger front bar + bfr59z will be a huge increase over stock. What may not have changed is the understeer/oversteer balance of the chassis.

I don't find the stock 1.8 front bar + stiffer BFR59z setting overly tail happy on dry bitumen. It may not be optimal for everyone though. The rear is well and truly willing to come around on dirt.

So you have uprated front AND rear bars. That wasn't so evident from your first post. You should still find some room for adjustment if they've left it at the softer setting.

Were you provided with any traction circle/skidpan data to compare OEM to your setting? If not I'd be pushing to get some of that info so you can see quantitatively what difference there is on your car.

[twilightprotege]

do you have pete's email addy? i'll email them both and see what the hell they are on

[arden]

Scot,

i was provided with a tax invoice and wheel alignment settings.
i will ask for the other data u mentioned.

[arden]

peter@whiteline.com.au

[twilightprotege]

arden you swapped back to the original bar before taking there right?

[arden]

switched?
was stock all the way...apart from springs

[ezin]

Considering the mazdaspeed protege has F=25mm and R=20 I would say they have set it up with a neutral setting which is good! Neutral is good so dont be to quick to flame the guys at whitline. Even if its got the same bfr59z bar on the back, are u happy with the way ur car handles around conners cause thats all that matters, U still got two bars (1 designed) and a 4WA (which is a prick on a lowered sp cause the lazers get blocked and u have to remove all the plastic covers under the engine) I think U got a good deal.

[twilightprotege]

original email i sent to peter and wojtek, reply and it's reply to follow :

Hi Peter and Wotjek,

I just had word from Arden Wong that he has his yellow Mazda Astina SP20 back with the new sway bars. However, I think there is a problem.

Originally Peter you said that the current rear bar available (bfr59z) was matched to the stock front bar, however when the new front bar was made (24mm - a 2mm increase over stock), the current available rear bar was used. That makes no sense from your original statement.

To quote, you said "The existing range of rear bars are designed to match and balance the OEM front bar. Fitting a larger front bar will require a new rear bar and we would therefore design new rear bars to match and rebalance the chassis
etc."

So what went wrong or what happened? I would have thought the front bar would have gone to 25 or 26mm, and then a rear bar made to suit, 21 or 22mm.

So could you shed some light on the situation? I'm quite disappointed with the outcome of this exercise. I feel bad because I asked Arden to do our small Astina community a favour and donate his car for a few days. Arden already had the bfr59z rear sway bar. He sold it so he could change back to the stock rear bar so you could do a complete comparison and upgrade.

In addition, what were done with the mounts?

[twilightprotege]

wotjek's reply - ps ezin, looks like Mazda told us all a dodgy - we all have 17mm rear bars not 16! :

Hi Andrew,

Thank you for contacting us, although I am concerned about the tone of your email.

I would like to start by setting a base line with original suspension.
Mazda 323 BJ2 is fitted with 22mm front and 17mm rear OE sway bars.

The actual cornering balance of the car is only partly dependant on the sway bar rates. There are many other factors that come into this equation, including wheel alignment settings. Changes to camber, caster or toe settings do change the handling of the car, so there are different ways of achieving similar result. In this example, option 1 can be the first mild improvement, and can be followed up by option 2.

Option 1.
front 22mm sway bar (OE), rear sway bar 20mm (BFR59Z) Result it greatly reduced overall body roll, as well as understeer.

Option 2.
front sway bar 24mm (BMF50), rear sway bar 20mm adjustable (BFR59Z) Result is even bigger reduction to overall body roll, as well as understeer and sharper steering.

So, to answer your questions....

What went wrong?
- Nothing.
What happened?
- We have improved the handling of Arden's Mazda 323.

I find it strange and disapointing that you are disappointed with the outcome of what we did, when you say... "I would have thought the front bar would have gone to 25 or 26mm, and then a rear bar made to suit, 21 or 22mm."

With 24mm front and 20mm rear, the increase over standard is 2mm front and 3mm rear.

Using your analogy, the effective increase in sway bars is 3/4mm front and 4/5mm rear. How will this change the cornering balance?

We also did not want to use any bigger then 24mm front sway bar, as that will start to have a detrimental effect on front grip, which is why we decided to use 24mm front and 20mm adjustable rear.

Lastly, I am not sure what you mean by; "In addition, what were done with the mounts?"

Regards,
Wojtek Rogulski

[twilightprotege]

my reply to wojtek :

Hi Wojtek,

Sorry if the tone of the email was in any way concerning, that was not it's purpose.

In terms of what a way bar does, yes I have a good understanding of what each part does in terms of a complete package for handling.

In terms of the "what did you do with the mounts" question, I was just wondering (which I'm sure you did) if you changed to polyurethane bushings and new brackets etc?

Now in terms of the options you provided. Obviously I am not as knowledgeable with suspension as you, but 24mm on the front still seams to be undersize for weekend racer handling. I compare with the available sway bar kits in Japan kit for the SP20. Mazdaspeed makes a kit where the front is 25mm and the rear is 20mm. Ok, this is quite comparable with what you are proposing. Autoexe makes a kit with 26mm front and 21mm rear. Is the front bar you designed adjustable? What do the bars adjust to and from (equivalent mm sizing)?

I see the N15 Nissan Pulsar has 26 and 28mm front bars available. Surely that car is very similar in handling to the SP20. This especially is why I am very unsure why you say bigger than 24mm is detrimental to front grip.

Another concern is that you say the 20mm rear bar suits both the OEM and 24mm front bar. I know you state that the 2nd option is adjustable, but wouldn’t a package designed for a daily driver/weekend racer be adjustable everywhere anyway?

A question I also had was why you decided on 24mm and 20mm bars. Was any testing undertaken and can you explain how this was carried out and what results were found with larger/smaller than 24mm bars on the front and 20mm bars on the rear?

Finally, what is the part number for the 24mm front bar?

Look forward to hearing from you again soon,

Andrew Bode

[twilightprotege]

hopefully that should get some decent answers.

[Riceboy]

hey dude looks like u guys having pretty dodgy probs with whiteline...

well atm im using the autoexe sway bars and result so far is not good ....

the fronts hit something in the engien bay dunno wat it is yet .. im getting that trouble shoooted by centrax tomorrow morning.

also if u dont wanna spin ur car at some long corners i suggest to buy some grippier tyres at the rear coz with the upgraded sway bars the astinas get very very tail happy. i nearly had a incident last nite on the inner city bypass .... scared the **** out of me

well i think with the setup that whiteline have chosen shoudl b good but still i dont think it would only take a few days to research and develop tho.

did u try fulcrum for ne suggestions ????

[arden]

BMF50 is the part number for the front sway bar.

[twilightprotege]

well whiteline does have the reputation in oz so that's why we went there.

yeah i was a big shocked they only needed the car for 2 days - almost like they already knew what they were doing to do

[Riceboy]

well they should know wat to do tho but not enough time for testing n stuff ....

makes u think how long they took testing and developing the current range tho ey ....

[twilightprotege]

was the front bar adjustable?

[Riceboy]

on the whiteline one or my one ???

mine isnt adjustable

and also reading the past few pages im guessing the white line isnt either

[chicaboo]

Hey guys,

Has anyone else had a tower/strut brace made up by whiteline? Cos mine has come in and to my surprise it is an RHS section and not a CHS like the Mazda oem...

Gav.

[SFC01]

Slightly off topic but the whiteline front strut brace is an ovoid-ish extrusion, as opposed to the OEM circular profile, so you seem to have received the "correct" part.

Andrew, I have been on record as questioning why the front sway bar needed to be upgraded in size. Chasing what is available on the US market doesn't necessarily mean that is the be all and end all in terms of what is ideal. That said one persons sense of ideal would be very different to anothers.

I guess the point I am trying to make is what was the purpose of whiteline's "development" of the BMF50? To make the 323 handle better. For me that means dialling out understeer. Now if I go and fit the new front bar I have no doubt that the body will roll less. I also have no doubt that with my set up all being equal I will wind up with an increased tendency to understeer. As Wotjek stated wheel alignment can have a huge effect on the handling of the car of and by itself. What I am interested in is how Whiteline aligned Arden's car and how those specs compare to stock.

I disagree that you can make any kind of analogy between the handling of a 323 and a pulsar (unless of course they have shared components and specs).

Also, understanding how swaybars work means that it is known that increasing the front rate for road use will wind up having a detrimental effect on front grip.

For mine I would have liked to see Whiteline offer a rear bar increase proportional to the increase in the front bar which to my thinking (42% increase in rate front and rear over the OEM/BFR59Z stiff combination) would be a 22.7mm effective rear bar diameter. Frankly why bother introducing another product line when 22mm is already available as the BFR59Z?? Maybe they rationalised on the front bar size to match the max rate of the available rear bar, I dunno just making conjecture.

Sorry for the length of the post...

[twilightprotege]

riceboy - was meaning the whiteline, but interesting to know the autoexe isnt.

SFC - all completely valid points. i'm mainly interested in seeing why they went for a 24mm size and what testing was undertaken to decide on that size. i used the pulsar size just to see what they'd say. same goes for the mazdaspeed and autoexe bars. if they can give me a great and informative response i'll be happy. either way i will be getting the setup just like arden. and yes, i'd love to see what they did with arden's alignment etc

[Riceboy]

hey yo

i think the thing with wat whiteline did is so that they can match up the same front sway bar to the rear sway bar that they have already made.

yeah i agree that it will be better then stock but then u have to decide wat u r using the car for. if its just for normal street boy racer then its fine but if ur afta track weapon then i guess its not wat you are looking for because also that the sp20 or astina in general is not really a sport car. compared to main stream cars like wrx and 200sx etc...

so thats why i think that whiteline didnt go into much development and research to make a overly pricey and track weapon type sway bar.

Twilight: got the bars fixed it no longer bumps .. :D so track day here i come :D

[twilightprotege]

make sure you tell me how your times decrease. my mate in his 200sx lost something like 2 seconds just from changing to the whiteline sway bars.

yeah i think that's what whiteline probably did - just match the front bar to the existing rear bar on the stiff setting. hmmmmm

[Riceboy]

man u should just come and race too

u will have ur car back by then wont u ??

the next one is last saturday of october

i should have my exhaust by then...

>.< i want my exhaust >.<

bit off topic but yeah u should come racing dude

[twilightprotege]

that was one of the ideas behind the brakes :D :D :D - dont think i will be making any until next year though - baby due 8 november

[preeman80]

ok so, wats the verdict guys? Should I order one or not? :shock:

[SFC01]

Wheel alignment specs?? -bump-

[arden]

Wheel alignment specs?? -bump-

i will scan it 2nite.

[arden]

ok so, wats the verdict guys? Should I order one or not? :shock:

Id say do it if u can manage to install it. only $150 for the bar.

[twilightprotege]

i still havent heard back from whiteline about my reply email. i just send them a reminder a few seconds ago

[arden]

hahaa, somehow i dont think they like you Andrew.

[TDK]

I am very interested in getting the front and rear sway bars so I called Whiteline today to get some prices and availability details. They said that the fronts are $228 and the rears are $185. Does this sound right? Do I need to get anything else to compliment these bars such as new end links or bushes?.

Thanks,
Bora

[twilightprotege]

yeah they dont like me, but i finally got a reply :

Hi Andrew,

I'm going to try to answer all of your questions and concerns as best I
can.

1) mounts
No, we did not change sway bar mounts or brackets. We did use new
polyurethane bushes.

2) other manufacturer's products
We use our own experience and judgement in line with our own philosophy
to maximise handling, without getting distracted by what others are
doing.
But, if you must do so, I suggest that you consider the following;
(a) Are the sway bars you are comparing solid or tube?
(b) What is the material used?
(c) Is the shape and size the same?

3) Other cars.
Sway bar size is only one variable that determines the sway bar
effective roll resistance at the wheel. Comparing one size for one car
with the same size for another car is totally meaningless.

4) OEM v 24mm front sway bar.
Please refer to my earlier email about tuning.

5) Part number.
Please refer to my earlier email.

Regards,
Wojtek Rogulski


wow that said a lot. anyway, i emailed him back saying something will the front bar be made as adjustable - probably not, but thought i'd ask.

tdk - the bars should be a straight bolt up

[TDK]

I'm guessing that the setup Arden got was not adjustable. Is the adjustable bar whiteline sell for the rear for front?

[twilightprotege]

the only adjustable is the rear - 20mm/22mm (acts like). i doubt they'd make an adjustable front bar, but i can only wish. i'd assume it would be 24mm/26mm (acts like)

[TDK]

Should i then get the adjustable or non-adjustable for the rear. By the looks of it the price that they quoted me ($185) might of been for the non-adjustable. What did Arden get?

[twilightprotege]

arden got the adjustable rear. if you get the front bar as well, get the adjustable as if you go racing you'll need to tighten it up. if you dont, i wouldnt worry about it.

i will get the same as arden. i'll have the rear set at 20mm for every day driving and tighten it up for racing/rather fast driving

[TDK]

So what you are trying to say is that if I am not going to race and only use it for daily driving then I don't need to get the adjustable bar. Is this correct.

Thanks for your help.

[SFC01]

I disagree with twilight on this. Go for the adjustable. You might just prefer it on the stiffer setting. I know that I did and didn't go back to the softer setting (which is the non-adjustable equivalent).

It isn't just about racing, it is about chassis tuning. If you have the opportunity to get adjustable, then why wouldn't you????

Remember that going from the OE to the 20mm bar is a 92% increase in stiffness, going from OE to the 22mm effective rate is a 180% increase in stiffness. And that makes as big a difference again as going to the basic bar over stock in terms of handling adjustment.

Personally I see little point in having an adjustable front to further increase the front rate. But that is just me. Even if you are going to the track you will be dialling in more understeer, sure you will stay flatter, but will you be faster???

[twilightprotege]

with the stiff setting, how twitchy in the rear is your car though?

when i was meaning dialing in more at the front it would even out the stiff setting on the rear

[arden]

Bora
u got the prices mixed up or the person at whiteline did.
Rear costs more than the front.
i got told front was 150 inclusive of all charges. . Unless they now decided to add the GST component

[TDK]

Hi Arden, long time no see.

The guy I spoke to today didn't really seem too interested in speaking to me. He virtually had the attitude "I gave you what you want now p!ss off". This is why I didn't end up asking any more questions. Maybe he was having a bad day, I don't know.

Anyway, I might give them another call and get exactly what they are charging.

By the way, how is the setup going. Can you see an improvement from stock.

[arden]

yeh its been a long time sincei i last talked or seen u.
And both of our cars have changed so much!

The rear sway bar sounds right, 235 or something like that.
the front should be 150 or 165.

yeh ive noticed big change from stock

dramatically reduced body roll
much more flatter around corners

[arden]

my bad, front costs 180, whiteline was so generous they decided to give me a $30 discount.

[twilightprotege]

tdk - maybe you were speaking to wojtek? LOL

[SFC01]

I still have terminal understeer. Lift off oversteer can occur in loose/wet conditions, but you have to be pushing and digital in pedal application. If you are smooth and use your brain a bit it isn't an issue. But the inherent "Wally factor" plough tendency has gone. If you were spending a fair amount of time driving on dirt roads then the rear bar would be too stiff - it takes some concentration to take corners then.

Turn in and cornering capacity were in my opinion enhanced further with the caster adjustment.

[twilightprotege]

yeah the caster made a big difference on my car. a large roundabout near me i used to go around at about 90 with tyre squeel. now i go around at around 100 and the car still feels solid. with the front and rear sways i will get above 100 :D

[Nate]

yeah the caster made a big difference on my car. a large roundabout near me i used to go around at about 90 with tyre squeel. now i go around at around 100 and the car still feels solid. with the front and rear sways i will get above 100 :D

its not large .... its f@rking huge!

[twilightprotege]

i love that roundabout. it's my home terriroty! hehehe

[twilightprotege]

i just ordered my bars.

paying $175 for the front, $220 for the rear - inc shipping. getting them through the brake place i'm going to (so they are giving them to me for a good price obviously)

[SFC01]

good, you will now be able to GO! STOP! and TURN!

[twilightprotege]

hehehe - that's the plan :D

just need even more GO!

[Cloudland]

i just ordered my bars.
paying $175 for the front, $220 for the rear - inc shipping. getting them through the brake place i'm going to (so they are giving them to me for a good price obviously)
hi twilight, how did U ordered the front bar, i understood that U posted the code BMF50 at protege5.com, but it didn't return anything when searching whiteline's online store.

btw, the postage to NZ seems fair, i'd expect to pay less than a hundred to have 2 bars shipped via post.

[arden]

Cloudland,
The front sway bar was only released last week so it hasnt been updated on Whitelines online store.

Twilight ordered his through some brake place near where he lives.

I guess u can drop a email to Whiteline themselves.
sales@whiteline.com.au

[jcywong]

so how much difference with the front sway bar???
is it worth it??

[twilightprotege]

yeah cloudland like arden says

jc - any upgrade would really be worth it. in terms of difference - arden have you had a chance to give it a good flogging yet?

[arden]

Nah, no serious flogging.
Im goin down to wollongong 2morrow and will get SP:KING to show me some nice roads to test it out.

[twilightprotege]

good to hear :D

[arden]

Had a bit of fang in Wollongong today.
Noticed some slight understeer in some tight corners.
Apart from that am quite happy with the bars.

[twilightprotege]

better to have slight understeer than oversteer.

might be an idea to try the firmer setting to see if that makes it totally neutral?

[jcywong]

try set the rear tyre pressure at 1-2 more that the front and you can get rid some understeer

[twilightprotege]

just got an email from wojie - they dont have effective sizes for the adjustable rear bar. it's 20mm and the settings are soft, medium and hard.

[arden]

oh thats really interesting.

[twilightprotege]

from what i can gather, the soft setting is 20mm, the others then increase the effective size of the bar.

[arden]

So is mine on medium rite now?

[SFC01]

Medium??? There are only two holes on each end of the bar. The further out from the pivots you go the softer the bar setting. So I guess for medium setting they must be suggesting close hole at one end and far hole at the other.

Wheel rate in roll is inversely proportional to blade length^2 and proportional to bar diameter^4

The bar is 20mm itself and from memory the outermost holes line up with the OE bar. I measured it up once and the 22mm effective bar diameter on the stiff setting was pretty close to the mark.

[arden]

2 holes on each end?Do u mean 2 alternative holes?

[SFC01]

No, two holes TOTAL on each end of my bar.

[arden]

Heres mine:
http://www.msprotege.com/members/sabrelli/rear%20001.jpg

[SFC01]

Very interesting. I don't have any photos here at work of mine I think. But that definately has more holes than then model I have. BFR59Z right?

[arden]

Yeh, BFR59Z, thats wot it shows up on invoice.

[SFC01]

Found a photo but don't know how to post it up. Definately 2 holes on mine. Also got a shot of a BFR52 on a BJII. By rights it shouldn't have fitted up, but then I am special. 8)

[arden]

SFC01 BFR59z :

http://www.msprotege.com/members/sabrelli/bfr59z%20fitted.jpg

[arden]

SFC01 Bfr52 :

http://www.msprotege.com/members/sabrelli/bfr52%20installed_1.jpg

[SFC01]

Thanks Arden.

Yeah, the bar I have is 20mm. The outermost bolt holes are at an effective lever arm of 145mm, which matched my OE bar (15.875mm diameter). The innermost holes are at an effective lever arm of 120mm. Which checks out as a 22mm effective bar rate.

I am now curious if the new bar has slipped another hole in between, or whether there is now another, stiffer setting available??? :twisted:

I think that someone is going to have to take some measurements of those fitting hole centres and the perpendicular distance to the bushing axis.

Oh, and the BFR52 can be MADE to fit dammit. But it does act as a droop limiter on the rear suspension. Noisy and nerve racking, worrying about bending control arm.

[twilightprotege]

me wonders when they changed to 3 holes??? maybe they did with the invent of the front bar?

[SFC01]

Curiouser and curiouser.

I am hoping that there is an additional stiff setting to match the new front bar. I might even then go the new bars myself...

[twilightprotege]

need to convince arden to get under his car yet again and do some measurements for us :D

[SFC01]

To me the hole centres look as though they are about 2.5x hole diameter. For arguments sake say the outermost holes are stock and M8 bolts are used that would mean the alternate lever arms are: 145, 125, and 105!! For arguments sake that would put the middle hole roughly equivalent to my setting. And the 105mm would be an effective bar diameter of... 24mm.

That would then mean handling balance of OE Front + medium setting (mine as it sits) woud be equal to BMF50 + stiff setting - just stiffer overall!!

Now I am really curious...

[twilightprotege]

come on arden - get under that car of yours ;)

[arden]

ill c wot i can do 2nite.

[preeman80]

yup... i got mine.. what 2~3 weeks ago? and yes it only has 2 holes, and mine is running the stiffer, i.e. the first hole, closer to the bar, away from the edge, just like the photo above of the BFR59Z

[twilightprotege]

i'd say it has to be an upgrade to suit the new front bar

[arden]

Ok, just crawled under car to make measurements.
Innermost - 105mm
Middle - 125mm- Current position
Outmost - 145mm

[twilightprotege]

arh....so it is a new improved rear bar for the new front bar :D

i hope they damn well give me the 3 hole rear bar!

[SFC01]

Blast. Now I am going to have to be a slave to fashion and get the new bars. D'OH.

Think of the fun that can be had with the 105mm setting with the OE front bar. Steady state oversteer, anyone? Uncontrollable throttle off oversteer. :twisted:

[arden]

Hey dont get it yet before confirming things with whiteline.
I still dont know why i got 3 holes when i got told it was same available bar .

[SFC01]

I'm not ordering anything as yet. I will wait until a second person gets one with 3 holes.

[arden]

hahaha, good one.
hopefully that will be Twiggy.

[twilightprotege]

yeah fingers crossed - havent had a chance to call the guy who's getting them for me. dont worry, i'll make sure it's a 3 hole bar otherwise i'll be ringing whiteline and telling them they sent me the wrong/old bar

[preeman80]

well, i am going to get the front sway bar tommoroooow, well i will order it anyways...

[twilightprotege]

here's an interesting email from wojie. i asked him if they were sending me the 3 point adjustable rear bar and not the 2 point :


Hi Andrew,

I'm not sure about the 2 hole adjustable sway bars, as this has always
had 3 holes.

Regards,
Wojtek Rogulski





wtf?????

[SFC01]

Can you forward that email on to me Andrew (you should be able to see my email addy under my info)? I will see if I can get an exhange part (again! - nyuk nyuk nyuk).

[twilightprotege]

done

[arden]

wtf indeed.

Pree, how many holes has ur bar???????????????

[preeman80]

it only has two, have to double check.. will get under the car at lunch time

[Cloudland]

bump, any update? cheers.

[twilightprotege]

my rear sway has 3 holes - and i will be installing it tonight :D yay!

[Cloudland]

enjoy Ur upgrades, twilight! post some pics if U can.

however i'll probably get myself a BFR59 the non-adjustable one at the end of this year. i want it to be simple. too many choices with an adjustable.

btw, about the mighty dynamic drive of BMW new 5/7s, i read it the other day, the secret behind it is that the car will automatically adjust the effectiveness of the sway bars - almost non-existent on straight smooth roads, and maximum effectiveness on tight turns.

[twilightprotege]

rear bar in. 20 minute job while having a large cup of coffee. talk about piece of piss! if only the front bar was so easy.

anyway, i installed the rear bar on the softest setting. will change that to the medium setting when i put the front bar on.

after a short drive - this IS a very worthy mod!

[twilightprotege]

just a quick q - do you guys have some sort of retainer ring on the rear bar like the stock one does? coz mine didnt.

not a concern because the bushes are in a part where it is only straight for a short time, but just thought i'd ask.

[SFC01]

Nope, no retainer ring and looking at it is hasn't moved around that much. I am tipping that the retaining ring on the OE is there to speed manufacture alignment. But I am guessing.

Save yourself the hassle. You WILL want the middle setting at least. The handling balance of OE + middle setting should be v. similar to front bar + stiff setting as a guide.

[twilightprotege]

cool - yeah i thought there must have been some weird reason for the retainer ring as the bar has a flat spot for the bushing and wont move far.

and i thought the rear bar will work into it's own preferred place over time anyway, but thought i'd just check

in terms of the rear bar on the middle setting, i dont really want to go there until i have the front bar installed. there is two reasons behind this.

1 - i didnt want a sudden jump so my wife has time to get used to the car (she likes cornering)

2 - i dont want the tabs on the rear struts to rip off. the yanks had heaps of problem with the awr 21.5mm bar ripping off the tabs on the stock struts. the reason it was going this is quite obvious. the front is swaying and the rear isnt. snap! when the front bar is on it'll be fine.

[SFC01]

I would venture that it would be a misalignment that was causing the issues with the rear tags on the US - imparting side loads on the tags will fatigue the welds a LOT faster than well aligned actions.

That said the BJII may well have had design changes and it isn't as big an issue on it. Who knows.

[Cloudland]

anyone had BFR59 with OE fronts?

[twilightprotege]

and..... :evil:

lovely nice cool day here in brisbane - overcast, but low 20's so i dont mind.

anyway, decided it was a lovely day to install the front sway bar. had a look under there and CRAP! i have a torn axle seal. damn it! grease has done everywhere. luckily i dont think it happened too long ago. looks pretty recent as there is still heaps of grease in the seal.

so no sway bar this weekend as i cant drive the car (well i cant but dont want to).

so - looking at the front bar. yes it is a total prick to put in. a hoist would be nice rather than under the car on my back (thank god i have a carpeted garage!). there is an outside possibility that the sway bar can be menouvered out, but i doubt it. will be worth a try next weekend when i have had the axle seal fixed as that is my no 1 priority atm.

[preeman80]

Just had my front sway bar put in...

And... :evil:

It is a bitch, I could see the mechanic and he was going off his nut! swearing his head off, as he was unable to get it "menouvered out"

Lots of stuff opened, lots of stuff put back in. a major bitch!!

But... :D

I like the ride, I did notice that my steering feels stiffer (harder)?
Anyone else feel that?

[twilightprotege]

i've decided i'm going to get my front bar put in when i get my cv joint seal fixed (hopefully torrow)

[twilightprotege]

well i finally got my car back. didnt have a chance to give it a good work out last night as it was raining a bit, but let's just say even on the slightly wet road i was going around corners the same speed as previously in the dry :D (well one corner i know well anyway).

other than that the car feels great. much more solid. just need to get a wheel allignment and it'll be sweet

[arden]

I like the ride, I did notice that my steering feels stiffer (harder)?
Anyone else feel that?


nah mine felt same as b4 sway bars....

[twilightprotege]

yeah my steering is bloody heavy - but that's not due to the sways. it's mainly from the caster mod and being lowered

but i love it! feels weird driving a car with light steering. i just love the feedback from the heavy steering :D

[Cloudland]

bump.

any update recently? any more photos? :P

i'm planning on a rear sway bar soon, will probably check out local distributors today, and make a decision during the weekend.

although i prefered the BFR59 non-adjustable, now i tend to pick the BFR-59Z. with OE front for now.

[chicaboo]

The BFR59Z might be good if you ever get a rear strut brace, so you can dial it back a bit. I have a hefty front strut brace and the BFR59 on the rear and it's very nuetral. But then there would be more flex in the Mazda oem strut brace up front, so you might like to be able to back off the rear sway a touch perhaps? At a guess I would say if I added a rear strut brace that my car would be as taily as it was when it was stock, so it might not be so bad. Just that my car is less nervous now and predictably benign with what I have at the moment...

[Cloudland]

ugh thanks chicaboo, i doubt i'll ever go that far to install a rear strut brace. i might however upgrade front strut brace - the same setup as yours.

i don't know if i really need it to be adjustable. if the bfr-59 was made to cope with the OE front, it might be a better (less expensive) choice.

i'll probably come up with a bfr-59 first, to see how the front sway/strut bars hold. and then i might settle down, or get a front strut brace. in this way i can do all the bars myself.

[Cloudland]

btw, BFR-59Z says "adjustable 18-22 mm" on whiteline's online shopping site. puzzled. :?

[Cloudland]

:lol:

checked a local whiteline distributor. maybe the guy got it wrong - both BFR59 and BFR59Z were quoted NZ$182+GST. GST is 12.5% and i can get about half back as the car was used for business as well.

even if they got it wrong, i mean, suppose BFR59Z is actually more expensive, the price (of BFR59, then) is still cheaper than buying directly from whiteline AU, delivered by post office.

just after i realised that i DO like more choices, this is a good news. i'll probably order a BFR59Z next week.

they don't have price for the front strut/sway yet, and a bit curious where did i get the part number of the new front sway (ha!) but will get back to me next Monday.

i also checked a local tint shop, for the solar onyx black ting recommended by tinter, the price is damn cheap as well, $260 all inclusive. will probably make a booking next week if money no problem.

woo hoo. sometimes it does costs less from a local shop.

just to confirm this: is the adjustable range of BFR59Z 18~22 or 20~22/24?

[chicaboo]

Hey Cloudland,

The physicl bar size on the BFR59 is 20mm, I think the sizes quoted on the BFR59Z are equivelants to fix point units?
But the BFR59Z is no harder than mine even on it's hardest setting... So I doubt you'd get anything more than a 20mm equivelant.
The BFR59 is very comfortable and doesn't make the ride any harsher by the way. I just thought I'd let you know that incase you had it in the back of your mind.
I'm half interested in getting a rear strut brace just to take out the movement in the chasis that causes creeks in the sunroof on a hot day!
Anybody know what's available for the BJII?

Gav.

[twilightprotege]

the z appears to be 20-22mm adjustable

in terms of rear strut brace, i think it was ezin who got the gt-spec bar from america??? i think there are a few others available from america too, but the gt-spec is the most used.

and the rear strut bar is good. made my car feel so much tighter even with stock sways. now it feels awesome. gave the car a good run last week around the big roundabout near me. got into a slight rear wheel drift but it felt totally stable and in control. very happy jan.

[Cloudland]

ok, the BFR59Z has 3 holes, will that affect the total strength or what? i'm paranoid.

if no surprises, and the BFR59/59Z come at the same price, will order the Zed one and put it in the middle. therefore if i get further strength on the front, i can move inward on the Zed, and if i ever get a rear strut, i can move outward.

choices are great!

[chicaboo]

the z appears to be 20-22mm adjustable.
22mm! Bloody hell, isn't that where your connector rods start to snap off? I wonder if the 22mm setting is that new 3 hole style the guys were talking about a few weeks back? Maybe it goes 18, 20 & 22mm equivelants? Sounds pretty full on though...
I can't really trail brake or steer the car with the throttle anymore, so I suspect the rear strut would bring that back like I said earlier. hmmm, not that I'm unsatisfied with the handling the way it is now. Just concerned about the chasis movement through the body more than anything...
Good luck with all that Cloudland, you'll find your car will corner faster than your seat will hang on to you! And I'm not joking. I'm a big guy so I suffer more lateral load shall we say, but you'll be surprised how the way the car used to lean will be replaced by how you go flying out the door...

Cheers,
Gav.

[twilightprotege]

if it's not 20-22, it would be 19-21 as all of the other whiteline 3 hole bars are only 2mm difference in thickness for adjustability.

and yes, 22mm on a car w/o an upgraded front sway bar would surely snap it off in no time. i think with the front bar it'll help out for a lot longer, but will eventually fail.

[Cloudland]

i skipped over some whiteline catalogs today, so these are the findings:

generally the whiteline swaybars are "touring sizes", about 1~5mm larger than original, unless solid whiteline replace same size hollow/tubular OEMs.

the Z at the end denotes "blade" adjustable bars, with experience from Group A and F1 racing. so it's more like "racing bars" on the hardest settings.

suppose the stock rear bars are 17mm in diametre, these are the increase in torsions:

18mm - 26%
19mm - 56%
20mm - 92%
21mm - 133%
22mm - 180%
23mm - 235%
24mm - 297%


for BJII, there are 2 bars in the catalog (catelog modifed June 2004):
BFR59
BFR59Z

PLUS front strut KSB622, and front sway BMF50, both not yet available in that catalog.

Ford Focus KQ also has same 2 bars as BJII, though BFR59Z listed as in price range B - same as BFR59, while under BJII, BFR59Z listed as in price range D.


whatever, now i'd assume the BFR59Z is 20mm in diametre.


i went back to whiteline's not so user friendly online store. and search BFR59Z, this is the result

H/duty swaybar-rr Blade adjust.
R / 20 / D / Adjustable 18-22mm / Ford Laser KQ Rear Adjustable
Code: #BFR59Z
Price: AU$207.27 (Australian Dollars)
NOTE: Australian deliveries must add 10% GST

so that means 18, 20, 22mm adjustable?


anyway, at least i know that the adjustable is more "racing" oriented, and the multiple holes are not likely to affect it's strength.

[twilightprotege]

well there you go. 18-22mm adjustability.

but you can do 18, 19, 20, 21, 22 settings. say for 21mm setting, you have the bar on one side on the stiffest setting, then on the other side you have it on the middle setting.

[chicaboo]

But isn't the bar physically 20mm diameter? Care to go measure your's Andy? Should be easy with the magic carpet garage... :D

[twilightprotege]

yeah it's definately 20mm, however the middle holes on the bar are the same distance out from the straight part of the bar as the oem bar. but dont forget as well, different materials used for bars give different results

[Cloudland]

Strange, Whiteline has BMF50 in their online shop, but it reads like an Adjustable!

H/duty swaybar-rr Blade adjust.
R / 24 / B / Mazda 323 Astina BJII
Code: #BMF50
Price: AU$166.36 (Australian Dollars)
NOTE: Australian deliveries must add 10% GST

[Cloudland]

btw, ordered BFR59Z today. they didn't get the quote on the front yet, someone (at the whiteline?) in the OZ is on holiday.

anyway, it takes about 2 weeks to reach here. the price is good. :)

[SFC01]

Anti-roll bar stiffness is related to bar diameter^4 and 1/(blade length^2)

That is how a 20mm bar has the 'effective rate' of bars being 18-22mm - by changing the blade length.

[SFC01]

Anti-roll bar stiffness is related to bar diameter^4 and 1/(blade length^2)

That is how a 20mm bar has the 'effective rate' of bars being 18-22mm - by changing the blade length.

[Cloudland]

seeing double :)

the "blade" part has to be made very tough to eliminate the effect of multiple holes on it. if not for the same price, i might get the BFR59 instead.

[Cloudland]

a bit of strange pricing here in NZ.

front sway BMF50 same price as read adjustable sway BFR59Z, about $185+GST
no quote on installation time/cost yet.

front strut bar $165+GST, and i could install it myself

so - front sway or front strut? or the oe front sway/strut bars are good enough to cooperate with BFR59Z on medium setting (20mm)?

i would probably stop here on the mods, next step would be saving for a leather retro fit.

[twilightprotege]

i find my setup with the stock strut bar fine. however, i do have a rear strut bar too. i'm sure a stiffer front strut bar would help, but it's fine