Turbo tech books - Anybody got one they recommend?

[Critter]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Ok so almost everybody knows the turbo bug done bit me :)
Minimising down-time and $$ (of course) is the issue.

After talking with Mal on the weekend, I reckon I need to get as clued as possible on exactly what I want to do, organise the bits and then get Croydon to just screw it all together (wouldn't do it myself).
Croydon coz I want to use my Unichip to run the show and they have the diagnostics and software for it.
Could also use any other Unichip dealer I guess such as CV's.
Opinions?

So.....good tech books (very current) I need to find and any sources of info on hardware that would be useful to look into is what I need.

Thanks in advance fellas.[/color:post_uid0]

[EZZY]

[color=#000080:post_uid0]good on ya mate. welcome to the turbo club! :)
first thing first, you need to decide on what you are going to do with the car, ie. straight line speed or good power with drivebility.
the basic hardware would be:
- turbocharger
- manifold
- intercooler
- exhaust system
- engine management system
- maybe fuel system and internals.

next thing to consider is how much power you want, and whats the likelyhood of you wanting more power, if so, how much more. a ball bearing t28 turbocharger is probably good for a 200hp application, but a ball bearing t03/04 produces more power with ease and give less stress on the hardware (able to achieve same hp output with less boost, but gererally you get a little more turbo lag). and a manifold for a t28 turbo will not fit a t03/04 turbo. do forget about the internals. stronger internals handles more boost etc.

i would strongly suggest to have say... crodon autosports to organise the hardware for you as they should provide some sort of warranty on the hardware as well as the workmanship.

hope this helps. if you need any help, let me know.

by the way, will the bp type engines fit onto your astina?[/color:post_uid0]

[sik astina]

[color=#0000FF:post_uid4]hey Eric,
Did you ever put EZZY on the dyno? if so, how much power did it make? ???


-Mick[/color:post_uid4]

[Critter]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I guess I am looking to achieve more "general urge" or driveable power with good throttle response (minimum turbo lag). But it needs to have enough stick to make it all worthwhile. Grin factor :D

So I think that a smallish turbo with good flow is the way to go, on mebbe 6-7lbs. The FZ engine is fairly high compression (10:1) and I would rather not go inside/reduce compression unless I have to. Hot4s' SR2 conversion didn't......probably means a fairly efficient intercooler to keep the dreaded detonation away. Hot4s said also that the FZ is a pretty tough thing and will survive a fair bit of extra load.

Also lots of power = tough on gearboxes etc, and I would like to keep a fairly friendly clutch etc (none of this brass-button stuff....)

A T28 ball-bearing was my first thought I must say. Croydon said when the Unichip went in that it would cope with turbo management requirements, sorta a deposit on the job if you follow.

Eric, any idea on what a T28 is worth $ wise etc?
Other observations?

Recommended reading?[/color:post_uid0]

[BigMal]

[color=#000000:post_uid1]Hey Critter,
Recomended reading would be 21st Century Performance by
Julien Edgar and Maximum Boost by Corky Bell. *That will
explain more that you will even need to know about turbo's
and stuff.

As for the conversion as boost is your limiting factor the
smaller the better. *Remember that you are reading mass
air flow so its not just boost but also volume of air that is
your problem. *As I said on the weekend find out if the
BP-ZE motor and the BP still share the same exhaust
bolt pattern. *You can check it by compairing the exhaust
gaskets. *That way you could buy a VJ-20 setup for
around $600 inc manifold. *Unless you plan to open the
motor and or change the management the cheaper the
better otherwise you are just wasting money.
A T28 or T25 will only just be working in its effeciency
zone. *Similar with I/C a second hand supra unit or
similar is all you need unless you want the show factor.
Lastly check out how much the unichip can adjust the
airflow signal & fuel for you model if possible. *Being a
SAfrican product maybe look on some of their pages for
examples.

My recomendation is the VJ-20. *Cheap, will do the job
and thats all you really want isn't it.

Mal[/color:post_uid1]

[EZZY]

[quote:post_uid0="Critter"][color=#000000:post_uid0]I guess I am looking to achieve more "general urge" or driveable power with good throttle response (minimum turbo lag). But it needs to have enough stick to make it all worthwhile. Grin factor *:D[/color:post_uid0][/quote:post_uid0]
[color=#000080:post_uid0]come on gritter, you know you will want more later.
im very tempted to get a front mount and high flow the turbo for the tt. need more hp to move those 20"s.

as for the b-b t28, there are many combinations and the prices varies. the new garrett will be around $1500 mark.
why do you look for the sr20det turbo and high flow it. the later ones comes in t28 size.[/color:post_uid0]

[BigMal]

[color=#000000:post_uid1]Problem is the pistons Eric. The BP-ZE is a stroker motor
which means that there is a 99% chance the pin location
on the piston will be different than a normal BP which means
custom pistons ie means big $$$. Maybe the US will
start making them maybe they wont. Without that you
are stuck withy low boost so why spend $1500 when for
$400 you can have a VJ-20 which will come on quick and
not be running out of puff at all in that situation.

Regards

Mal[/color:post_uid1]

[EZZY]

[color=#000080:post_uid0]i know, thats pretty ****ty when there are not many thing available for your car.... :([/color:post_uid0]

[kyra]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Chris,

Anything bigger than a T28 (b-b off S15 is the way to go) is not going to be efficient at the sort of boost you will be running. I am not sure about Mal's choice of the 2nd hand supra I/C, i'd be opting for a large, custom front mount job... if the I/C is able to flow a heap more, you can be reassured the T28 won't be struggling with your 6 - 8psi. Have you had a decent look at the space in the front bar... plenty of room with a bit of plastic cutting!!!

Also, exactly as Eric said, you will not be happy on low boost for long, so the logical consideration would be to look at a set of pistons (check the turbo protege5's for aftermarket pistons???).

Engine management is another story altogether.. if Croydon recommend you to keep the unichip, it will save you some cash... which again depends of if you would be looking at upgrading the fuel pump, fuel lines.

Decisions, decisions!!! Speak to the guys who have actually bolted a turbo to their stock astina engines... and make sure you save some notes for me in the future!

Cheers,
Bill[/color:post_uid0]

[BigMal]

[color=#000000:post_uid1]Agree with what you are saying Bill except that the reality
(In my situation anyway) after doing the conversion I have
broken 2 gearboxes. *This has almost stopped me upgrading
the motor any further. *Not a day goes by that I don't think
bigger this, bigger that etc etc but I don't want to get to a
stage where the breakages become so frequent that I don't
enjoy driving the car anymore. *

That was why I advocated the little cheap stuff to Chris.
I wont handle the big output. *I agree the supra cooler is
not good for big boost but 5-7psi the air is not really hot
as the turbo's not working hard, flow will be fine as well.
If the guy that Anthony used makes smaller ones around
my size 12"x10"x4" for cheap def go for that. Point was
cheap $$ agree bigger is better to a point.

What I mean by all this is if you buy a VJ-20 and a supra I/C
for $1000 you could use it for a couple of years till a good
setup becomes available or the bug has bit & stock boost
isn't enough anymore you will get almost every $$ back as
they will always sell to another TX3/Laser/Mazda323 guy.
Go the other way and spend $5k plus on new turbo, big I/C
etc etc and then not use them because you find out the price
of pistons is way to dear or you start busting gearboxes
like I have how much will you be out of pocket then. *$$$k's

Regards

Mal[/color:post_uid1]

[Critter]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Critter reads with eyes wide open :)
Good stuff lads.....

As I use this car to work with, reliability is paramount, so something that breaks things all the time = Not Good.

I think Mal has got a good handle on what I'm wanting to achieve, we have spent a bit of time chewing the fat on the subject.

It will be a stealth project, not wanting to show off ANYTHING I don't have to, intercooler painted black behind lower grille etc so Supra I/C prob does the job if it flows enough cool air to prevent detonation.

If I want something to go REAL fast I will get a rear drive RX-7 turbo and drift it :) (now there's a thought for a weekend toy....)

Suggestion ALL taken on board and pen has been working....[/color:post_uid0]

[IZG-00D]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]there's always gonna be turbo lag, unless you paid huge amount of money on the setup.
last month, i was thinking/ready to put on a supercharge on my astina (thanks to erics idea). i wanted my astina to be a one off with the only astina in the country to have supercharge. that idea would have gone through this month but change of plans.
suggestion, i would go for a supercharge (no lag) but cannot increase boost.

DAMN!!![/color:post_uid0]

[EZZY]

[color=#000080:post_uid0]someone in melbourne is going super........ :)[/color:post_uid0]

[kyra]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]melbourne? s/c?? it would only be worthwhile on the v6, so Dave, is this another stealth project? if you sell the rims, you will have enough to pay for everything! hehe.
oh yeah, i'm quick to jump to conclusions... correct me if i'm wrong though....[/color:post_uid0]

[EZZY]

[color=#000080:post_uid0]dont know if this person is on the forums or not.
we have been talking via email.
its a 1.8 litre ba astina.[/color:post_uid0]

[BigMal]

[color=#000000:post_uid1]Bill I think you are off about the SC only suiting the V6 not
the 1.8. *If anything the opposite because the 1.8 lacks
the low down torque of the 2L. *Also consider the donor
cars which if toyota are 1.6, 1.8 & 2L so most will work
better on the 1.8 being designed for that capacity whereas
will be a little small on the V6 for top output.
Peter,
Not true about not being able to change the boost. *TRD
and many other suppliers offer a smaller pulley to increase
the boost output. *Look at any of the MR2 SC sites and
they all talk about them.

I agree that a blower would be a great option for Critter. *
2 slight problems. *Most bolt around where the A/C go so
whether another location can be found on the BP-ZE motor
not sure. *2nd is the massive increase of torque at low revs
being applied breaks gearboxes moreso than the turbo's
due to the lag with turbo. *Without having anybody to
compare gearbox reliability against it may be too risky an
option as Critter pointed out this is a daily drive.

Regards

Mal[/color:post_uid1]

[Rupewrecht]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]i've never though about the supercharger breaking gearboxes, but good point about the added torque. but hey, you never stop learning :)[/color:post_uid0]

[IZG-00D]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]serious mal... didnt know that. i though if you bought a setup for 6-14psi supercharge, then that's all you'll get. you can't boost it up more than +15psi, unless you change the setup to turbocharge.
check out the site with a mazda mx5... CAPA (http://www.capa.com.au/kits_import.htm)
i had a few enquiries from CAPA and Jackson Racing but the problem is they haven't work on an astina. closest car they did was the MX5 but its a RW drive.
the best thing about this is it kicks in a 0rpm which is good advantage over turbo.[/color:post_uid0]

[BigMal]

[color=#000000:post_uid1]In regards to 15psi yeah thats about the max of a blower.
Stock they put out 7psi and with a smaller pulley around
15psi. *Realistically you don't want any more than that.
Torque works very much inverse to revs. *So if a blower
is running full boost at 1500rpm you have a lot of torque
being applied which is what breaks the gears. *What killed
my boxes was planting the foot at 110km/hr in 5th where
the car will boost straight up to 10psi but is only 3300rpm
so the force placed on the gears to make them move is a
lot more and bang. *Bubbye gearbox. *Turbo's are better
like that cause the start coming in around 3000rpm so the
car is already going along when it comes on boost. *Think
of it like a rolling start. *SC is straight off idle so no rolling
but turbo comes on at 3000 so car is rolling and hence less
resistence in turning the wheels. *Similar even when moving
as turbo's have lag so the power applied is more gradual
than a SC.

regards

Mal[/color:post_uid1]

[BigBoyLemonade]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Look at AVO turbo world in melbourne... I would ring them up... get them to make up a package for you...
they bolt on turbo's to mx5's all the time with the right package...

If doing inhouse or various shops to do it I would
- get a fully programmable ecu... unichip sucks arse... get something like an autronic to do the job properly and screw the air flow meter off..
-get a GT28 cause they are so much better than a standard T28 BB off standard s15. The internal design is so much better and GT28's are rated to 400hp. you would need a custom manifold though which is $$$
- upgraded clutch
- high flow fuel filter and fuel pressure regulator
- have the ecu manage the boost around 6-8psi
-get a small garret bar and plate core which has the best effective cooling at low boost

that sort of setup would allow you to run the turbo safely and at a later date rebuild the motor properly.. wind up the boost and run some healthy kw's. but the catch is the cost $6000.

Superchargers are nice and the idea of them are great but only on cars with strong boxes like toyota's and hondas... mazda dont have strong boxes.[/color:post_uid0]

[BigBoyLemonade]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]unichip's are ****... dont touch them... and for the price you could get something fully programmable like a wolf 3D... not as great as a Autronic but will do the job[/color:post_uid0]

[Critter]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Tony
As I already have a **** :) Unichip and I'm happy with it, works good on my thing IMO.......

This is a an interesting thread, onya fellas!!
Taking all this stuff on board.......[/color:post_uid0]

[IZG-00D]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]unichip is good cause you can take it off your car later and transfer it to another different car...[/color:post_uid0]

[wfo13]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]These guys are in Melbourne, visited them the other weekend. http://www.powerflowsuperchargers.com they have done mx-5 and there are pictures on the website under kits. They say it was a tight squeeze, but they got it done.
After seeing under the astina's bonnet the first thing he said was, 'how attached are you to your air conditioning?'
After some more investigating and inspection, he can move the power steering pump and leave me with air con.
Basically drive in, fit it, tune it, drive out. Would need the car for 3-4 weeks. Would include keeping my air-con and upgrading some internals of the engine and a bit of head work.
After reading the other posts, bit worry about my original gearbox which has done 120k.
Another post mentioned $6000 for turbo setup, s/c is a little bit higher, but have asked for extra work done. In the end 7-8psi with 50% more At the wheels. If all goes as planned early next year will be the go time for this s/c'd 1.8 astina.[/color:post_uid0]

[BigMal]

[color=#000000:post_uid1]WFO13,
* * * *Sounds great mate. *I hope it all goes smooth for you.
What year model is your Astina. *The earlier ones run a
different box which looks more like the previous SP which
from all accounts is a stronger box. *You may find that
7psi is OK on the box and its only when you floor it with
10-15psi like with the turbo's that they break. *I run around
11psi so my problems may not be yours.

I really want to hear all about it when its done. *I am very
interested in them as I am more a street nippy than a race
guy. *I want my car to go round the twisty stuff fast not
really all that worried about HP or top speed.

Best of Luck

Mal[/color:post_uid1]

[EZZY]

[color=#000080:post_uid0]hey wayne, didnt know you are here....... :)[/color:post_uid0]

[BigMal]

[color=#000000:post_uid1]Sorry Wayne,
Didn't read you signature which says yours is a 96. I
think they changed the gearbox mid year as when you
order a clutch there is a pre/post date in 96 to specify.
Maybe Tony can advise he only bought his clutch
a while ago..

Regards

Mal[/color:post_uid1]

[BigBoyLemonade]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]I would love to advise you but there are three series of the BA hatch. Series 1 1994-1995/6
Series 2 1995/7-1996/?
Series 3 1996/?-1997

they all have different boxes and different clutches according the daiken rep I bought my clutch off... best to find out where your daiken representitive and get them organise the clutch for you..

Daiken = Exedy = Mazdaspeed... its all the same... just food for thought.

My friends laser with a unichip runs too rich and fouls the plugs constantly and he had to get his valves reseated... he blames the unichip but I havent seen many success stories.. yeah they have plenty of examples on the website but I never heard of any on the street.

but everyone has a different opinion...[/color:post_uid0]

[wfo13]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Eric, thanks for the tips. It was defintely good to have some background knowledge before turning up to their workshop. Questions to ask etc. It is a centrifugal type which delivers right thru the rev range.
BigMal, I'm on the same wavelength, nippy and constant power. Although not like a turbo setup will still be fun to drive.

Plan to take pictures for all to see.
Thanks for the support.[/color:post_uid0]

[Critter]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Tony, considering the Unichip is tuned on the Dyno with fuel curves etc, something has to be not right for the thing to run rich and foul plugs....

Not like a Powerchip/similar which is a simple plug-in.....and might not suit "as is"......

Looking forward to hearing about this s/c set-up :)[/color:post_uid0]

[BigMal]

[color=#000000:post_uid1]Critter,
I wish a chip was a simple plug in for our cars. Needs
the whole ECU to be sent away. They quoted me $800
to a $1k to do a chip for my setup inc dyno work but if
I changed anything eg Turbo upgrade have to do it again.

Not bitching at you mate just wingeing about how it is
being a high tech mazda man.

Mal[/color:post_uid1]

[Critter]

[color=#000000:post_uid0]Fair enough, but there's some that they just plug one in....[/color:post_uid0]

[BigMal]

[color=#000000:post_uid1]Yeah mate,
If we had a commodore its just plug and play. Or if
we had a delco ecu you can just plug into it and
remap them all together. *You can even tune them
from N/A to boosted application. *Is an interesting idea
if you have the chance as it still runs a MAF which is
better than MAP for finer tuning. *One of those in the
back of my mind ideas. *Zoom often ran articles about
a guy they called Delcoman who used a delco ecu on
everything from boosted bikes to volvo's with mazda
FE boosted motor.

Regards

Mal[/color:post_uid1]