View Full Version : Geabox go bang - Well more clunk
BigBoyLemonade
08-04-2003, 09:11 AM
[color=#006666:post_uid12]Well today driving around very normally I trashed third gear...
Very very upset :(
It started clicking when engaged in third gear. I could change in and out of every gear, I could go from 1st to 5th, the whole lot... it would engaged and drive just make this horrible noise... then I got home, and then took it for another spin. then I engaged into third, accelerated away and it was clicking/clunking really bad. then I changed out of third back into 2nd then it started in every gear and then 10metres later it started clicking/clunking all the time even when the gears werent engaged.
I drained the oil and there was only 1 tiny metal fragement. I mean small, very small.
is it the diff or gearset or main shaft bearings?
Any ideas what it is... I just dont know if I should have the box rebuilt or should I just buy a 2nd hand box?
oh yeah I can still engaged all gears and it still moves just makes bad clunking noise...[/color:post_uid12]
Toyboy
08-04-2003, 09:41 AM
[color=#000000:post_uid11]:O I knew it would only be a matter of time,that SUX :([/color:post_uid11]
BigMal
08-04-2003, 10:41 AM
[color=#000000:post_uid1]Welcome to my world !!
Not sure about the clunking mate. Both times I couldn't
engage gears it would go in then pop out. First time
you could hold it in a gear and after a while it would pop
out. The teeth are minute so could still be gears.
Bad luck :(
Mal[/color:post_uid1]
BigBoyLemonade
08-04-2003, 06:47 PM
[color=#006666:post_uid0]this is my dilema... I think its more the diff I think... cause I can still engage gears and also only like 1 metal fragment came out... like 4mm x 2mm but who knows if that came from somewhere else
I can still drive it.. just makes bad bad noise... Im not driving it though...
where can I buy 2nd boxes?[/color:post_uid0]
[color=#3A6EA5:post_uid0]does the sound still continue when you disengage the clutch???[/color:post_uid0]
BigBoyLemonade
08-04-2003, 09:25 PM
[color=#006666:post_uid0]it didnt at first but now it does it all the time, whether the clutch is in our out or even if its outta gear now...[/color:post_uid0]
[color=#3A6EA5:post_uid0]does the noise vary with speed, revs or remain constant?[/color:post_uid0]
BigMal
08-04-2003, 11:30 PM
[color=#000000:post_uid1]Bit hard as you have the in-between gearbox. The later
model is same as the Capri B6T box. I would recemend
getting the same as Geoffs but not sure if the shafts
would need changing as well. If the casing is not busted
it cost me $700 to rebuild and the $250 to remove and
replace. You can most likely do the work yourself so may
be better to rebuild yours and get a warrenty.
Regards
Mal[/color:post_uid1]
BigBoyLemonade
08-04-2003, 11:45 PM
[color=#006666:post_uid0]my box is the same as geoffs from what I have been told....
Its got to with the speed of the car.. not rev's or what gear it is in...
so I can only put it down to the diff..
If I can get it rebuilt for $700 I would be happy as larry!
So far the labour cost is only $350 plus parts which is resonable. I am pulling it out and putting it back in myself... Its a **** job but I save $$$ that way[/color:post_uid0]
BigMal
08-04-2003, 11:53 PM
[color=#000000:post_uid1]Way cool if yours is the same as Geoffs.
I thought ages ago when we looked at all of them
that yours was slightly smaller and then mine was
smaller again.
Shop around, Like I said I paid $700 last time and that
included new gears.
Regards
Mal[/color:post_uid1]
BigBoyLemonade
09-04-2003, 01:50 AM
[color=#006666:post_uid0]Nice... anyone heard of sourcing stronger stuff? I have looked on fordlaser.com and they say its got all to do with the casing?
Did that include the diff mal?[/color:post_uid0]
Rupewrecht
09-04-2003, 02:04 AM
[color=#000000:post_uid0]Apparently the Astina SP20 box is stronger than the KH TX3 one - but i'm not sure what generation the KH box is. Presumably the same as the 89-94 SP...[/color:post_uid0]
KittyKatSmack
09-04-2003, 06:52 AM
[color=#736AFF:post_uid11]Just wanted to say sorry about your loss.......
Am still looking forward to seeing your beautiful car though.
You will have it back on the road in no time!
So now that I have thrown my 2c worth in, you can get back to the topic of the thread.[/color:post_uid11]
BigMal
09-04-2003, 08:08 AM
[color=#000000:post_uid1]Don't know,
That was just rebuilt with 6months warranty.
Not sure if they had to do anything to the diff or
if it would have been more if they did.
Sorry.
Mal[/color:post_uid1]
Edited By BigMal on 1049839768
Osprey06
09-04-2003, 11:04 AM
[color=#810541:post_uid0]Tony,
sorry to hear that mate.
I'm pretty sure I saw you out in civic again on about the 5th...
Love seeing that astina around ;-\...
If there is anything I can help you with (being the mechanical nothing that I am - but having 2 weeks of uni coming up :p )...
drop me a line mate...
PS, I remember something being said on fordlaser.com about removing the rear bearing and welding in a solid metal plate (as the bearing flexes and breaks as the case flexes) a while back - although I can't say if that's 4wd specific of not.[/color:post_uid0]
BigBoyLemonade
09-04-2003, 11:45 AM
[color=#006666:post_uid0]yeah I saw you but didnt realise it was your car until you got half way down the street from me!
the box just came out... took me four and half hours... I forget how much work is involved... anyway the car will be nearly 100% perfect.. spending some $$$ over the next three weeks have it all looking shmick
Its strange... it must be somthing simple... I will be interested to see what the problem is.. I will keep you guys posted[/color:post_uid0]
Aaron
10-04-2003, 04:36 AM
[color=#000000:post_uid0]I'd throw my vote at a rooted spider gear in the diff (assuming you're running a open diff not some techy LSD).
Either way I know the pain of gearbox hassles, my Neon went through 9 'box rebuilds due to oil leaks due to a defective casing. Got the local Chrysler guys very good at doing gearbox out, strip and fix, gearbox in the car again. to the point where they could turn it around in under 1 day!
Nothing worse than that feeling of doubt everytime you step on the loud pedal...
My last Mazda had a habit of busting 5th gear... it used to goes with a huge "bang" at 100+kph and scare the crap outa me.
9/10 it was the circlip holding the gearset in place on the layshaft?, that would break and leat the gear slid out of place and crash around... Oh the joy :( $180 for the gear, $25 for the syncho each time... Oh and 50c for the Circlip....[/color:post_uid0]
BigMal
10-04-2003, 04:52 AM
[color=#000000:post_uid1]Case flex is a problem. *As the gear teeth are so small only
needs a little flex for them to move far enough apart to break
them. If you can get any braces made for it would be good
but the gears would still smash.
Hope it ends up cheap for you
Mal[/color:post_uid1]
Edited By BigMal on 1049914412
BigBoyLemonade
13-04-2003, 01:50 PM
[color=#006666:post_uid0]Well my problem is I am missing three teeth off third gear... So now I am just awaiting a call about how much it is going to cost to fix...
the guy said it wasnt really from to much power but from to much torque... so in that theory its better to keep the car revving rather than putting unneccessary load on the box because of the flex factor.[/color:post_uid0]
BigMal
13-04-2003, 08:53 PM
[color=#000000:post_uid1]Totally agree with the Torque remark as my 5th gear
problems were torque not HP. 3k on the highway and you
put the boot in the car boosts straight up so you got
heaps of torque/lowish revs and bang bye bye box.
Still wish a MX6 gearbox could be mated to a BPT.
Mal[/color:post_uid1]
BigMal
02-05-2003, 11:53 AM
Do you think I listen to my own words... Nope.
Looks like I may have busted my Gearbox again.
Trying to catch Jynx with his new exhaust system I
was coming up from the gong at like 130 all the way
car was screaming as its getting colder now :)
Anyway got home and there is a nice trail of gearbox
oil following my car into the garage. This morning a
lovely smelly oil puddle. Its down at the mechanics
now doesn't look good :(
Bugger !!
Mal
Rupewrecht
02-05-2003, 03:07 PM
Dayam! :(
any word from the Mechs?
but think of it this way - it's Jimbo's fault :wink:
oi i aint force him to do 130... and for the record.. he didnt catch me.
NA POWER! (and a small headstart)
Toyboy
02-05-2003, 07:09 PM
Not good dude :( These are the reasons why ive turned off doing a turbo conversion :evil:
BigBoyLemonade
02-05-2003, 07:29 PM
Mal holds the gearbox record Jynx! I can not compete!
BigBoyLemonade
02-05-2003, 07:40 PM
here is a picture boyz and galz.. thats what 112.5kw @ the wheels does to your third gear
http://www.astinagt.com/images/3rdgear.jpg
TURBO MAZDA
03-05-2003, 02:31 AM
hey guys, sorry to hear about your gearboxes blowing but i can't understand how you do it !!
I have given my gearbox hell and it's still almost :) good as new except for my little problem with going back into 3rd sometime.
BigBoyLemonade
03-05-2003, 09:03 AM
My guess is they last about 6months at a time...
well let us know when you blow yours Turbo Mazda... its starts off with a slight vibration and then it just falls apart...
how often do you drive the car?
4 vs 1 .... common tony... get with the action mate.
BigMal
06-05-2003, 11:57 AM
Hey all,
Mechanic called me back and told me the bad news. Diff is smashed
and has cracked the case so I am screwed. Also looks like oil has
got all over the clutch so it is screwed too. So I basically need a
whole new setup. This is number 3 for me now in 3 years and I am
jack of sticking in the same box. I am not willing at this point to
do a dog box as neither Eric or Dan have done enough mileage to
prove its indestructable and worth the $3500 to $5k which I dont
have anyway. I am considering a BG gearbox or an SP20. I think
the answer to Turbo's question is that the BG was a cross platform
model including turbod cars so for economy of scale made a stronger
single box to handle all cars. 5 years later later with my Astina there
is no turbo'd models so you get the cheapest assed box they can make.
If anybody has any friends that have hands on knowledge of either
of these boxes would appreciate it. Need to know things like flywheel
& clutch sizes, input shaft size and any other differences between my
model would be appreciated.
Ta
Mal
Osprey06
07-05-2003, 03:35 AM
I think
the answer to Turbo's question is that the BG was a cross platform
model including turbod cars so for economy of scale made a stronger
single box to handle all cars. 5 years later later with my Astina there
is no turbo'd models so you get the cheapest assed box they can make.
I'm not sure I would agree with the reasoning for the strength issues here.
For the BG series 323 and equiv. lasers, there were no fwd turbos, only 4wd. In saying that, I guess it is more than likely that the front dif et al for the 4wd shares some architecture with the fwd.
on the fordlaser.com forums, "KH TX3" was saying good things about his SP20 box...until that went (his fourth box too, I believe...and he was in an n/a tx3!!) It seems quite obvious that the current (94 or 97 astina??) boxes don't seem to be working. All I could suggest is that there are people on fordlaser.com running standard bp and b6/t boxes with bpt engines and they *seem* to be doing ok.
R0B-80E is running his original KF carby 5 speeder behind a bpt. Also of the people who put bpts into KE (87-89) lasers, I believe most of them are running the standard b6 boxes. In saying this, you've also posted on fordlaser.com, so I guess I should leave it for that forum....
Aaron
07-05-2003, 11:36 AM
Dare I venture to say that a lot of the problems with gearboxes in NA > Turbo conversions comes from driveline 'shock' and driving manner not from weak gearboxes...
A 'turbo' gearbox is always tougher than an NA box becuase the torque application is non-linear, and can come in quite suddenly... Also...
If you're the kind of person that flat changes each gear (NA or Turbo) and clutch dumps between changes you will put a lot more stress on the box (or the 2-3 teeth that are meshed at that moment) than someone who lets the clutch slip a little for those changes. If your tyres don't hold traction then some of that force goes out in smoke/noise, if you get grip then the force is greater etc etc etc..
This is why AWD boxes are much much tougher than 2wd boxes.Similar happens when you really start boosting - toque may increase dramatically in a matter of milliseconds and all it takes is a marginally weaker component to finally fail and bang...
Sort of a good reason why super charging is nice (although it doesn't solve the gearshift problem) - and why a lot of people are now working with autos....
And then there's the luck factor ;)
MrShadow
07-05-2003, 01:49 PM
Ahhh, what I wouldn't give to have a v6 2.5 L conversion so I can buy my mates Eunos 800 supercharger.....
C'Mon Lotto!
Aaron
07-05-2003, 02:28 PM
Yeah Lotto would be nice...
The great thing is that from what I understand the V6 boxes are internally identical in toughness...
Wonder in a FWD MPV v6 will bolt up.....
*thinking*
BigBoyLemonade
07-05-2003, 06:58 PM
A 'turbo' gearbox is always tougher than an NA box becuase the torque application is non-linear, and can come in quite suddenly... Also...
If you're the kind of person that flat changes each gear (NA or Turbo) and clutch dumps between changes you will put a lot more stress on the box (or the 2-3 teeth that are meshed at that moment) than someone who lets the clutch slip a little for those changes. If your tyres don't hold traction then some of that force goes out in smoke/noise, if you get grip then the force is greater etc etc etc..
This is why AWD boxes are much much tougher than 2wd boxes.Similar happens when you really start boosting - toque may increase dramatically in a matter of milliseconds and all it takes is a marginally weaker component to finally fail and bang...
Sort of a good reason why super charging is nice (although it doesn't solve the gearshift problem) - and why a lot of people are now working with autos....
And then there's the luck factor ;)
Um sorry I have to disagree...
there isnt any turbo FWD boxes for our car...
um its not flat changing that does it in our cars... its high torque in low revs that pull the two shafts apart which separetes the mesh between the gearset cause it to break... yes flat changing will cause a box to break but mine didnt break like that and I know most of mal's werent due to flat changes... i blew mine accelerating in 3rd gear round a roundabout when I should have been 2nd which would have lessened the torque in the higher gear...
AWD boxes are worse than some FWD... some of the best gearboxes are made buy honda and toyota which a stronger than most WRX, GSR, and familia 4wd boxes...
ppl have 12sec drag civic and corolla's in the states running standard drivetrain... its just the bearing casing in our mazda's is made out of alluminimum and toyota's and hondas have a steel casing that holds the bearing in place...
Supercharging would be worse on a 323 FWD box due to the torque....
It does make me wonder if the Auto boxes are stronger but you can still blow an auto box if you have enough power
Aaron
08-05-2003, 11:05 AM
Just to clarify I was speaking in general terms... Not talking about your car/gearbox/driving nor the Astina conversions specifically.
Obviously if the casing or structure lets things move out of place then all bets are off no matter what the box. AWD are typically stronger - although that doesn't mean they're up to to job they tasked with.
Do you think it may be possible to reinforce the casing? Or get the section remade in steel?
BTW there's at least a couple of other non-honda <12 sec cars in the US I know of running stock manual boxes ;)
A.
TURBO MAZDA
08-05-2003, 12:43 PM
Hey Mal,
The difference i noticed with the 89 - 94 and your model box is that i am able to use the gtx clutch, flywheel and pressure plate, where as for your model the opening for the flywheel is two small to use the gtx flywheel and pressure plate
With the issue of talk, my motor is puting out more than double what the standard turbo motor puts out, That is why i don't understand why you guys keep blowing boxes, If i press it in my car you can see just how much talk it has, as it pulls you all over the road and if you aren't holding on then good luck!!
My box is completly standard and haven't had any problems with it. so i personaly would put a 89 - 94 box in, it also lets you use the gtx flywheel and pressure plate which is bigger.
I drive my car 3 days throught the week 2 work and everyweekend.
BigBoyLemonade
08-05-2003, 01:08 PM
I hope I wasnt too short with you aaron... just wanted to clear up some things...
I can fit the GTX flywheel and clutch in mine but they were smaller than what I had in there... :?
I would really like to know what my box is... :?
I also have another theory... we are running 18" rims... my dad reckons put the 14" rims back on and it wouldnt break as easiely
what rims are you using TURBO MAZDA?
how long have you had your box with the standard motor? how often do you drive it?
MrShadow
08-05-2003, 02:34 PM
I'd agree with that theory Tony. It's easier for the gearbox to spin 14's as they have less mass, so puts less strain on the box/gears.
TURBO MAZDA
08-05-2003, 02:36 PM
The standard box has been in the car since th car was made i believe.
My car has been a turbo for about a year and abit now.
I have 17inch wheels on 205/40 tyres.
I think your dad is right, put smaller wheels on and it puts less stress on the box. but you will get more wheel spin, so you can't win.
BigBoyLemonade
08-05-2003, 02:58 PM
well I reckon I should get a BG SP gearbox...
yeah I think the 18's create a lot of extra force on the box...
One question more.. I have ask a couple of times... How often do you drive the car?
Just on weekend or everyday?
My problem is a drive the car everyday and drive it hard all the time...
what turbo did you have again? T3?
TURBO MAZDA
09-05-2003, 12:43 AM
I drive my car 3 days throught the week, 2 work and every weekend.[
I have a t3/t4 turbo , at the moment i have it set on 10 psi boost, which is plenty for just driving around.
BigBoyLemonade
09-05-2003, 08:06 AM
well I would consider that normal... they must be just bigger
BigMal
09-05-2003, 07:52 PM
Time not permitting me to search for a gearbox any longer I ended
up with another KJ Laser/Astina Box. The guys ended up taking
my smashed box as an exchange even thou the casing was cracked
so I saved $200 and bit the bullet. They brought me out what they
said was a BG Astina box but it was a SOHC box as the clutch hole
was no bigger than mine. It also bolted on different at the back with
the rear mount bolting on like a airplane rear wheel with a single
bolt going through two holes located at the diff. I had tried other
places for a box but nobody had one cheaper and I couldn't get passed
a lot of guys saying all DOHC boxes were the same.
However they did tell me that they believed my 5th gear breaking
problem was from oil and not too much power. They recomended
use synthetic oil and change it every now and again. 5th gear gets
the least oil being right at the end of the box so levels need to be
right up and like I said before a good oil needs to be used.
So hopefully 4th box lucky !! I would still like to research a BG box
if the rear mounting is the same triangle 3 holes.
Mal
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