XR5 tubro vs 3 MPS

[Pork Chop Express]

Really keen on both these cars, but which is better?

Aesthetically, the 3 MPS looks the same (to me), but the Focus has subtle changes... I'm sure the 3 MPS has changes too, but they weren't too obvious to me...

That's the thing about the new (smaller) turbo cars (GTi, 3 MPS, Focus, EVO 8), unless you know the car you won't know it's turbo...

Just reading reviews of the Focus and it sounds really good (but no cruise control?).

[Melbastina]

I'm sure I read somewhere that the MPS will come with an LSD, where as the focus wont.

I've been trying to find this info again, but I cant for the life of me, can someone else confirm this?

[Cincinnatus]

You think an EVO8 looks like a 2003 Lancer?!?!?!? Time for an eye test son

[Rupewrecht]

3 MPS has LSD, not sure about the focus. I bet you read it in the HS carsguide tho!

[Ian]

personally, I think the 3 is a better buy. But thats just personal oppinion, I cant really back it up.

[Pork Chop Express]

I drive a mazda and I intially headed towards the 3 MPS.... I'm sure the majority of replies in this forum would be for the 3 MPS (the opposite for a Ford forum)..

But I guess what I want to know is why one would be better than the other.

LSD is one thing that was pointed out.. (thanks)

[Rupewrecht]

I'd take the XR5 - it doesn't look like a bloated PT Cruiser like the 3 does ;)

[Pork Chop Express]

Mazda really know how to sell their cars.. just saw the video for 3 MPS..

www.performance.mazda.com.au

The specs and performance of the 3 MPS are very appealing, but as was pointed out, the Focus just looks better...

[illusivedreams]

There is no replacement for displacement..XR5 is my pick until I can get some real figures...

If MPS has LSD and XR dosent back to Mazda I will swing my vote

[mcwilly]

xr5 all the way looks **** loads better wheels are similar to lamborghini aswell i love em

[mike_d87]

i have heard the fit and finish isnt up to standard but that would be up to the individual.

[woofy]

I would have thought the MPS wins hands down...build is better...and the power stock is crazy.

[ezin]

Both are cool as, I know these two things about these 2 cars, The mazda enginers are argueing with the been counters about wheels, Bean counters want 17's cause they are cheaper but the enginers say it cant have them on due to the huge amount of torque generated the traction control system will be overloaded. So who knows how long it will take to get here. And the ford, well they are only releasing 20 a month to aus (yes F#*^ing 20) So good luck getting one in the next 2 years. Are You listening Ford!! You Dicks!

[dfvadr]

as for better value ,i herd that the ford is going to be around 35k an the mps3 is going to be mid 40,s so i guess ford is better value there

[chipa]

XR5T for sure, bang for buck I doubt it can be beaten.

[Astro Boy]

If MPS has LSD and XR dosent back to Mazda I will swing my vote

What? Ok.. whatever floats ya boat?

[Forg]

i have heard the fit and finish isnt up to standard but that would be up to the individual.
Are you sure the fit & finish refers to the XR5T?
I can understand the rest of the Focii, being made in Sarth Efrica, but the XR5T being made in Germany makes me think they'd be more like Fiesta build-quality; which is very good IMHO.
I wouldn't make the decision until driving both, but about the only thing Volvo does well these days is make reasonable engines. The MZR is OK, but the Volvo white-blocks just seem to be torquier & more tractable while also being able to rev a bit. Plus the standard Focus is a sweeter steer than the standard Mazda3. But going back the other way ... Mazda are upgrading the 3 for the release of the MPS, remember that Ford have had a couple of years to refine the C1 platform so now it's Mazda turn.
I'd frankly be a little surprised if the XR5T didn't turn out to be a nicer drive; but certainly wouldn't be very surprised if the MPS was better. :)

[illusivedreams]

hehhe

Ok $40k can’t go past a wrx crazy specs and AWD.

Can’t change there image and that’s the only bad thing.

But performance it will be hard to beat. Also the track record and the development of over a decade plus rally heritage which the Mazda doesn’t have.Yes ford does.

Again personal preference ...Alternatively an EVO 7 or such can be attained as an import for around the same with even more mind smashing power and handling.

my 2c :p

[Forg]

Ok $40k can’t go past a wrx crazy specs and AWD.
Well ... the latest Wheels reckons the XR5T is better to drive, and it's $5k cheaper than the WRX. The XR5T has also been more than favourably compared to the Golf GTI in Yewrop, and the Golf is allegedly a better drive than the WRX too. And I'm pretty sure Mazda have indicated they're aiming at XR5T pricing rather than WRX pricing.
Traction control, equal length driveshafts, just general smarter design have made FWD considerably nicer to drive in the last decade-and-a-half ... I really think both MPS & XR5T would be more attractive to any of us than the current WRX if we went out & drove the three.

I don't think you can really compare a used thrashed Evo to a brand new MPS '3 either ... you have to compare new price, and while the Evo IX is a much quicker car it's also 1.5x the price (and probably the sort of car where your girlfriend will insist on you both going out in her metallic dusky-pink coloured Paseo than your Evo :)).

[LordWorm]

There is no replacement for displacement..XR5 is my pick until I can get some real figures...

If MPS has LSD and XR dosent back to Mazda I will swing my vote
your talking about 2 turbo cars... turbo *is* the replacement for displacement. You are making a car use as much air as one with a bigger motor would by force feeding it.

I'd look at raw power numbers
take the thing for a decent test drive
decide which is the best fit
and buy the one you like the best

difficult to compare cars on paper.. gotta drive em first and see for yourself.

[Ian]

Yeah. The "Displacement is everything" theroy should be carefully applied. How elese can I beat a 4L commonwhore or nose out and slowly pull on a 2.5L Turbo GTST 'line? (Sorry tim!)

Displacement isent everything. Big things can come in Small packages and holden has certainly proved small things can come in big packages.

Larger displacement gives you a larger foundation. But a foundation alone doesent make a nice house. Use what you have properly and 1.8 L is all you will ever need.

[LordWorm]

Yeah. The "Displacement is everything" theroy should be carefully applied. How elese can I beat a 4L commonwhore or nose out and slowly pull on a 2.5L Turbo GTST 'line? (Sorry tim!)

Displacement isent everything. Big things can come in Small packages and holden has certainly proved small things can come in big packages.

Larger displacement gives you a larger foundation. But a foundation alone doesent make a nice house. Use what you have properly and 1.8 L is all you will ever need.
When you think about it, boost of any sort is artificially increasing the displacement of the vehicle... not really... but it is making it breathe as much as a bigger motor would... add to that the effect of compressed air on an explosion and you've solved the problem of tiny displacement.

Another thing that plays on displacement is technology. Honda have been making small motors that eat much bigger motors for breakfast for a long time.

Like you said Ian, and your completely correct... displacement is your baseline. Big displacement CAN mean big potential (though I understand, not always)...but then, small motors have lots of potential too =)

[Forg]

Another thing that plays on displacement is technology. Honda have been making small motors that eat much bigger motors for breakfast for a long time.
Well ... they do & they don't, it really depends on the application.
My sister had a '92 Civic Si sedan in automatic form; this had the 96kW DOHC 1.6L engine from the '87-'92 CRX in it. What did the late 80's 1.8 SOHC Proteges have, 82kW was it? 'Cos unless you drove around with your right foot absolutely buried in the firewall, the automatic Protege was actually a quicker car to drive; the Civic, despite having more power, thrived on revs & the auto gearbox just held it back shockingly. I guess if you were pushing it around a racetrack it'd be a different matter, but the SOHC 1.8 Protege would snot the 96kW DOHC 1.6L Civic in an impromptu traffic-light drag.
In manual form, it'd be a different story!

Anyhoo, in this case we're talking about a direct-injection MZR aren't we? I imagine that in terms of compression-ratio & hence throttle-response/driveability, this would kinda make up for the 25% extra cubic capacity of the Volvo motor. The VW turbo 2.0FSI seems like a bit of a torque-monster, and hopefully the Mazda3 will be no heavier (and has more power). The only problem the '3 might suffer is the very Japanese need for numbers that both look right on a spec-sheet & fit within the model range; this might make them tune it with more power, but lose flexibility which would make it a quicker car in all situations except a race-track.

[LordWorm]

Forg, was speaking generally, not about specifics...but yes.

The basic point of it all, is that displacement is not everything...once apon a time, it may have been the case, but with factory turbo cars becoming more and more common, better technology and what not, its not the be all and end all that it once was.

[Ian]

Yeah... A vast amount of the energy produced in a combustion engine is still going to waste, is it not?

[Pork Chop Express]

Any ideas about the Golf Gti?

From what I can tell it's got a lot more features and options..

Features include: Cruise Control (!), head light sensors.....

Options include: Xenon lights..........

Only for $3k more than the focus too...

[Cincinnatus]

Been reading alot of posts refering to fit and finish on the ford being up to specs because it is made in Germany. Can't agree with any of that. All the evidence i have is anicdotal (aside form mercedes recalling 1.2 million cars last year) but everybody i know whom has bought a high end top spec german car has had nothing but headaches, their one saving grace is that they have all been under warranty, they all seem to sell them beofre that magic date runs out.

So far : Mates Golf fsi, SA i know but supposedly german, back to factory 4 times in first month, he swears he'll never go anything but european again, go figure.
Uncles Porsche Cayenne, everything from rusted wheel locking nuts to entire entertainment unit being replaced inc screen and computer behind it, indicator assembly to reverse sensors to headlight washers. He also loves his POS.
Aunts CLK320 drop top, under warranty before palmed off to some other idiot, folding roof, gearbox, rear dif, radiator, power windows.

All the above all happened within the 3 year 40,000 k range. Aunt being the only one to go back to Jap car after this.
Will never ever buy a european car. Ever. And German? Tphu!

[LordWorm]

Yeah... A vast amount of the energy produced in a combustion engine is still going to waste, is it not?
oh yeah ... MASSES of it... the most thermally efficient motors in the worlds (enormous turbo diesel beasts that drive merchant ships....and i mean big! http://www.bath.ac.uk/~ccsshb/12cyl/) are only 50% efficient. as that site says, cars and small aircraft are only around 25-30% efficient (talking thermal efficiency here, amount of energy in the fuel being converted into momentum)

[Forg]

Mates Golf fsi
South Africa.

Uncles Porsche Cayenne
Good ol' USA.

Aunts CLK320 drop top
These are South African too, these days, aren't they?

In any case, my comaprison was to German Fords, in particular the Fiesta; which seems to be as well made as a Mazda2 or Jazz.

Aunt being the only one to go back to Jap car after this.
A brand new Corolla? :)

Any ideas about the Golf Gti?
From what I can tell it's got a lot more features and options..
Options, yes ... you can get the $40k GTI up to $55k pretty easily. Think I'd be in an EVO for that money, but anyhoo ... they know how to charge.
The $3k fancy gearbox would be interesting if, for example, your missus refused to drive a manual but you thought autos were dull.
AFAIK, the XR5T comes with almost no options list; you gets wot you gets, and that's it.

[Ian]

so if a 1.8L is 33.33% efficent, and we worked it up to say, 66.66%, itd be the same as a 3.6L engine of the current technology.

Maybe that would be a better way for research to move, instead of just making bigger engines.

Were wasting a huge amount of energy, and therefor fule, espically in your larger 3L+ Engines

[LordWorm]

so if a 1.8L is 33.33% efficent, and we worked it up to say, 66.66%, itd be the same as a 3.6L engine of the current technology.

Maybe that would be a better way for research to move, instead of just making bigger engines.

Were wasting a huge amount of energy, and therefor fule, espically in your larger 3L+ Engines
I think thats overly simplified, and I dont have a physics degree so I don't think I'm qualified say that a 1.8L thats twice as efficient as a 3.6L would produce simillar power.... there are alot of other factors at play as well.

There are obviously barriers to thermal efficiency, and you'll never get something 100% efficient - You cannot win, You cannot break even, You can only lose. Perhaps its easier for manufacturers to just make bigger motors?

Having said that, manufacturers have been improving effiency of engines, which is why you can get 2L 4 bangers producing the numbers they do these days.

Anyway... a little off topic... so I'll wrap it up there i think =)

[illusivedreams]

My 2 cents..

Its not that simple. O worked for a Japanese importer for a long time and drove many turbo(GTST.GTS,Gtir's/////lllalala) and not turbos Mivecs and so on...

The reason is say there is no replacement for displacemnt is larger engines have more torque lower in the rev range than smaller pocket rockets...

I love you all but th WRX rocks .It is built tough very unforgiving it gives much more than it takes and over the last decade has and will be an outspoken car. The list of options such as APS that are availible to turn this car in to a super car is endless.

This car has a really good track record. The AWD system is amazing and in the wet or anything but a nice smooth road(where are they) is a great thing to have .

Ok Im on a mazda forum trying to sell a WRX silly me :p

If you want a nice car to show your mum ,girlfriends and friends than...yes Mazda and the Ford are absolutely above any expectation...They are in there right good sports cars..

You want something that will take for a ride that only sex can compare to something that makes you bring out the boy racer ....Than the WRX and EVO'S have not competion....
Disclaimer:
I have no issues where the cars are built...SA GErman or PAkistan heheheh
I own a Ba 2L
The information supplied should not be used in making any serious decision
You can all flame at any time
Im not now or ever employed by any of the companies mentioned
The opinion is of the author (me)

:eek: :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

[LordWorm]

My 2 cents..

Its not that simple. O worked for a Japanese importer for a long time and drove many turbo(GTST.GTS,Gtir's/////lllalala) and not turbos Mivecs and so on...

The reason is say there is no replacement for displacemnt is larger engines have more torque lower in the rev range than smaller pocket rockets...

I love you all but th WRX rocks .It is built tough very unforgiving it gives much more than it takes and over the last decade has and will be an outspoken car. The list of options such as APS that are availible to turn this car in to a super car is endless.

This car has a really good track record. The AWD system is amazing and in the wet or anything but a nice smooth road(where are they) is a great thing to have .

Ok Im on a mazda forum trying to sell a WRX silly me :p

If you want a nice car to show your mum ,girlfriends and friends than...yes Mazda and the Ford are absolutely above any expectation...They are in there right good sports cars..

You want something that will take for a ride that only sex can compare to something that makes you bring out the boy racer ....Than the WRX and EVO'S have not competion....
Disclaimer:
I have no issues where the cars are built...SA GErman or PAkistan heheheh
I own a Ba 2L
The information supplied should not be used in making any serious decision
You can all flame at any time
Im not now or ever employed by any of the companies mentioned
The opinion is of the author (me)

:eek: :) :) :) :) :) :) :)

ok not going to start a stand up argument here...
but i'll put forward one case.

we have a guy on this forum, with an NA modified 2L BJ astina, that runs 1/4 mile times around a stock WRX speed. Thats balltearing torque, from a smaller motor. So the displacement = more torque in low rev range argument ends there i am afraid. (said car also develops less wheel horsepower then the WRX)

Also, you are speaking about displacement, and how you cannot replace it with anything, yet you talk about a car that is boosted... boost IS the replacement for displacement. The WRX is being force fed more air then it could breathe without the aid of the snail. I'd suggest its torque has alot to do with that.

I'm not saying your argument isnt completely invalid. In days gone by, it was true, bigger was better....not so much now. Theres alot of other things (and if someone more knowledgable than me about things such as rod ratios, compression and stuff wants to jump in and explain, please do....) that contribute to torque, and power... size isnt everything.

[twilightprotege]

there are 7 replacements for displacement.

1. technology
2. rpm
3. volumetric efficiency
4. forced induction
5. chemical assistance
6. weight (ie better power to weight ratio), and finally
7. getting the power to the ground

reason i hate wrx's is as follows. the only advantage they have is when there is a loss of traction, ie leaving the line. as soon as they are moving, the added weight of the awd system is slowing the car down. simple example is when the wrx came out (same time as the 200sx). the wrx had more power, yet they did the same 14.4 1/4 mile time.

that and everyone owns a wrx. boring.

[illusivedreams]

Increased displacement I was reffering to 2.3 vs 2.5L from the ford

Each to there own,

My preference is simply an opinion.. i enjoy the wrx like no other Car . I used to drive for a living again its simply my pick from the cars that i have driven.

[LordWorm]

Increased displacement I was reffering to 2.3 vs 2.5L from the ford
yeh, but what i am saying is that it takes more then displacement

do we have specs on both?

are you claiming that simply because the ford has more displacement, it is magically more powerful than the MPS 3, or do we have cold hard facts to back it up?

if you have the numbers, then i'll stand corrected... until such time, i'll continue to say, that theres more than displacement at play when it comes to power/torque/whatever.

my comments were very general... explaining that there IS replacements for displacement.. and size isnt everything

[illusivedreams]

y


are you claiming that simply because the ford has more displacement, it is magically more powerful than the MPS 3, or do we have cold hard facts to back it up?



:confused:

I simply enjoy a bigger motor.

[mike_d87]

Forg i havent driven either, i will admit that. after reading a few reviews which doesnt make me an expert in any sense, but all of them have said the ford is excellent value for money, but the finish and attention to detail left a lot to be desired however most compare to the golf gti which is just unfair.

here is a review i just found in case u were interested.
http://glassguide.goauto.com.au/mellor/mellor.nsf/story2/7483BB5742DB7D03CA25715E0009BD0A?OpenDocument

[Forg]

Certainly was of interest, ta! :)
I've still not read a complete, proper Australian review (OS ones are often inaccurate by the time a car's changed to be sold here, or performance changes due to our fuel, or our road-surfaces mess-up the handling, etc etc) ... I'm eagerly awaiting one though, I'll be most interested in a WRX vs GTI vs '3 MPS vs XR5T story when it finally arrives.

[platypus]

Been reading alot of posts refering to fit and finish on the ford being up to specs because it is made in Germany. Can't agree with any of that. All the evidence i have is anicdotal (aside form mercedes recalling 1.2 million cars last year)
...... Will never ever buy a european car. Ever. And German? Tphu!
and yet half the parts arn't from germany either!

mercedes benz wiring looms, award winning, best in the world due to being so well put together... in india... and hell in a modern day car isn't a wiring loom only second to the chassis build??

COE arguments are just plain silly... friday in most countries is known for slap up work, rushing to make beer-o'clock....

[Forg]

COE arguments are just plain silly... friday in most countries is known for slap up work, rushing to make beer-o'clock....
Country of origin arguments may be silly, but I do think that the actual plant a car's made in makes a difference. OK, pretty much every single Japanese plant turns out quality cars, but my comment on the XR5T being better-made than a Zetec came more from my assumption that it'd be made in the same plant that churns out Fiestas - and Fiestas seem a pretty well made vehicle.
If you compare the ED Ghia I'm about to be flogging to a '94 Oz-delivered Corolla that'd been treated in the same way, the Corolla would be considerably more intact (unless it had red paint of course) - yet both were made here.

Mind you, there's also a big difference between issues relating to design, and issues relating to fit-and-finish & assembly quality. The just-superceded Astra seems pretty well screwed-together to me, but you won't find anyone who's owned a 1.8 & who hasn't had electrical problems. I doubt you can generalise on cars made in Belgium based on that (although it seems to me that maybe you could generalise on the entire GM world ... :)).