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Old 27-01-2010, 05:51 PM   #21
Old Grey
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That's how they tighten them these days it's more consistent than torquing. If you use different oils the head will get torqued to different torque even though the wrench reads the same.

Yes do them in sequence. Do all the bolts up to the torque as per tightening pattern. Then turn them in pattern another 90º. Then turn them in pattern another 90º.

You don't need this gauge if you mark the bolt head and the head near the bolt.

http://moodle.student.cnwl.ac.uk/moo...torqgauge.html

It's rare you would have faults in a cast iron block but just check for nicks or burnt out areas. When you lightly sand the top of the block you will see any if they are there.

If you want to stop corrosion use distilled water instead of tap water and coolant as well. Distilled water doesn't conduct electricity as well as tap water. Try it with a multi meter it has heaps more resistance. And it boils at a higher temp.

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Old 28-01-2010, 07:23 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by Old Grey View Post
That's how they tighten them these days it's more consistent than torquing. If you use different oils the head will get torqued to different torque even though the wrench reads the same.

Yes do them in sequence. Do all the bolts up to the torque as per tightening pattern. Then turn them in pattern another 90º. Then turn them in pattern another 90º.

It's rare you would have faults in a cast iron block but just check for nicks or burnt out areas. When you lightly sand the top of the block you will see any if they are there.

If you want to stop corrosion use distilled water instead of tap water and coolant as well. Distilled water doesn't conduct electricity as well as tap water. Try it with a multi meter it has heaps more resistance. And it boils at a higher temp.
thanks mate. Yeah I always use coolant with distilled water. Make up my own dilute using Nulon concentrate. I've just bought the car from a bloke who gave up basically.

The engine was rebuilt less than 3500 klms ago. Bottom end was acid dipped the works before build. I just found out after contacting the engine builder in NSW, the head had been replaced many times & has had helicoils to both ext side & inlet the last time due to this. It has done less than 1000 ks since last visit. He couldn't source another head so, opted to refit it again.

I have sourced a reco head from melbourne. Will be here tomorrow but I won't be doing the job for some weeks. I just don't have the time, esp when I have to pull the manifolds/exhaust/turbo LPG & gear/IC you name it off & do it all double sure this time.

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DO NOT!!! put any oil on or in any of the head threads, this could end in snapped head bolts, wrong torque and degree settings or even a threaded head bolt thread...
yep, I threaded one rocker arm bolt thread. The last I tightened. That's when I contacted the engine builder who did the work. Told me had been done so many times. They couldn't source another back then I'm getting another 4 rocker arm bolts sent as well as the new head bolt kit. 2 rocker arm bolts looked like they came from bunnings lol, 2 had different size bolt heads. (2 x12mm, rest 13mm) hmmmmmm........least the Merc will get TLC now

My reco'd one arrives today suposedly. Funny thing is, they recommend lubing the thread & bolt prior to torquing down

The water pump, thermo etc should be cool as seller replaced them @ rebuild. Even though car has been sitting, it has been started/run every week, fortnight @ most. That's one consolation I guess. Because I am weary now with the whole thing, it will be probably a few months before I get it on road as a reliable driver. Going to go over everything painstakingly bit by bit. May even get the little 323 back on road earlier @ this rate. It's not so much the dollars but the little things like details for Engineer Cert etc. I know the laws have changed since years back when it was done

Forgot to mention, the engine builder had left bonnet unhinged & as a result, bonnet flew back when driving & so, he was up for new bonnet, paint etc. So, this may have raised tension a bit beween the seller & him. May explain the quick fix with replacing head & get it out?

One thing though, do you think the crank oil seal would be OK after being pressured with 11-12 litres of oil? Seller said he had topped it up with 2 litres to just above dipstick max line. Ran it for 2 hrs the morning he delivered it. I took it around block once. That's all. I did notice oil had come out of filler cap. Justa bit. Would this pressure have done an likely damage to bottom end?
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Old 29-01-2010, 07:43 PM   #23
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well I'm stuffed? Heads off & a look @ the block shows no:1 bore o'ring missing?????? Also, on the head, no:3 valves are white whilst 1 & 2 are dark grey/black & 4, 5 & 6 are brown! There are pit marks on no:1 & no;5 port surround on head & 1 & 5 pistons. Something has gone through IM? Also, Turbo (less than 1k since rebuild) has more play in it (up/down not side/side) than an 8 week old pup!

How can the turbo have that much play in it after a rebuild? I have the freakin receipts for all the work! $900 almost for the turbo. $5,500 for engine & that's just the basic build.

hmmmmmmmmmmm?????????????????

2 of the 3 bores I can see depth in have like a raised ridge about 1 1/2" to 2" down bore?????

really getting interesting for engine with fluckall k's on it

Oh,,,,also, due to the stinking head bolts being so difficult to get out. They were cacked in old greasy shat! I managed to drop one washer down the timing chain cover into block. I do hope it hit the fluckin' sump? Gotta love some of these cowboy engine builders

I thought the block surface had to be dead flush. Bore O'ring's included? These are all raised except the one that appears missing? The 6 metal collars on head gasket that surround each pot would need to crush down onto these rings.
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Old 30-01-2010, 04:08 PM   #24
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Some may find this very interesting:

If you overheated it once before your problems started I would suspect a damaged head gasket. When you overheat the engine the head and block grow due to thermal expansion. When they cool off again the head and block shrink back to original size but the gasket is now crushed and will eventually leak where it crushed. Sometimes right away and sometimes a couple weeks later. This damage can be measured when the gasket is removed. The gasket will not recover or rebound after it is crushed

If not I suspect electrolosis damage. It is possible the head itself has electolosis damage from old antifreeze living in the system. Old anti freeze can actually eat the aluminum head.

This may explain the rediculous trouble to my engine as it sat for years. Even though it was started weekly, t still was'nt run enough & if coolant was old....?

__________________________________________________ ______________________


Few pics prior to herad removal. I chose to remove it with ext & inlet manifolds on & turbo in situ:







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Old 30-01-2010, 05:38 PM   #25
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think I've worked out what the toss has done to this engine. He hasn't used coolant? OR, coolant is ineffective/too old to maintain properties/structure.

Money in a young dicks hand is like a jewel in a Pigs snout..........?

Now I have to fix the f-up!

my delightful query is: where the fluck is the o'ring around no:1 pot??????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?????????????????????????????????????????????????? ?? how can it vanish?!?!?!?! seriously?
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Old 30-01-2010, 05:45 PM   #26
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It might not have ever been there mate. Just because you have receipts for the work, doesn't mean the work was done right. Give it a ring job, a head job, new seals and throw it all back together. Keep it or sell it, just get it to a point that you get some satisfaction from the initial purchase one way or another.

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Old 30-01-2010, 05:53 PM   #27
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It might not have ever been there mate. Just because you have receipts for the work, doesn't mean the work was done right. Give it a ring job, a head job, new seals and throw it all back together. Keep it or sell it, just get it to a point that you get some satisfaction from the initial purchase one way or another.

Gav.
fluckin job was done by bush pig wagga wagga scum that should be shot. They left bonnet hatch unlocked & bonnet flew up, bent, they replaced & painted. The paint job is to die for Gav. My guess is they bit the bullet & wacked ****ty head back on & said "see you later". They shoulda stuck to Hyundai Lantras imho!!!!!!! I'm really pissed @ this. No:1 & 6 piston have had something metal put through them. Same pitting on head. Gasket has got that many water jacket leaks it's like swiss cheese. Sorry guys for rant but, after dropping washer down into block........I got more than little bit pissed @ these turkeys. I will never knock anyone for trying but when a guy spends big doe to mhave a job done right & gets a lemon........not on!

What is really getting me is.....I will need to replace the block o'ring before I can replace head gasket. How do I do that? Btw, I'm going to put Naughty back on road @ same time. It deserves to have coolant/oil running through it's channels (not in the same place lol)

Car has my undivided attention now I can't bare to see it in the hands of another toss-head......no WAY! Truely, it has inspired me to get Naughty out of the garage!
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Old 30-01-2010, 06:45 PM   #28
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You might even make some more power when it's back together mate. Hopefully the tune isn't too far out also.
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Old 30-01-2010, 07:54 PM   #29
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Here's some pics of the head gear seperated ready for clean up etc:





IM with Gas Research Mixer:



Now the Turbo modified stock Ext Mani:





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Old 30-01-2010, 07:57 PM   #30
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Yummy

Is it running gas research?
Yes Matty, Gas Research. Hallam, VIC (sticker on back of Mixer)

I think I have found the problem guys!!!!! The head gasket may be the culprit after all AMG may make a modded gasket for HP engines. Since the engine is FI'd, this extra heat/stress/power may just be blowing the last 3 gaskets? This is all based on my assumption after knowledge of the B6T SS multi-layer gaskets we use.........hmmmmmmm

still researching the correct engine applications for this gasket
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Old 31-01-2010, 07:35 AM   #31
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From what I can see the center cyl(#3 or #4. the white one) has electrolytic corrosion that is touching the fire ring on the spark plug side. The light colour probably indicates it's the problem.

You can see dark sections past the fire ring that says the head is not clamping in areas.

It's common when those heads are overhead badly that they go soft and the threads holding the rocker-cam caps down strip.

You need to wire brush the tops of the pistons and remove all the shrapnel from the tops of the pistons as they can glow when running and ping.

You have to clean the top of the block with a soft wire brush and check the O-Rings are protruding about 0.008-0.0012". If it's a 0.040" wire and it protrudes OK you could run copper head gasket or maybe Cometic make a MLS but I think you have to file the O-rings flat.

You need to clean up stuff to access things and if you have a flash for your camera it would be good.

I can't see the block too well but it looks like rust half the way down the bore if it's not a camera trick.

The pistons look like forgies so there's $1500-$2000

Get a telescoping magnet for the washer.

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Old 31-01-2010, 04:17 PM   #32
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I can't see the block too well but it looks like rust half the way down the bore
Yep! You can see where the water has run down the side too! Here's some better pics:








Quote:
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The pistons look like forgies so there's $1500-$2000
Yep, Aries!

Also, there is a strange lip/ridge about 1 1'2-2" down 3 of the bores. Merc site reckons the blocks didn't have o'rings stock?
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Old 31-01-2010, 08:13 PM   #33
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this doc' explains nicely the extreme benefits of using copper head gaskets with o-rings and receiver grooves to block and/or head/s in high power applications. Something people easily overlook.

http://www.scegaskets.com/page/thetr...adgaskets.html

I always wondered why a heavily modified, turbocharged car I owned so long ago used copper o'rings around each combustion chamber (bore) & when I used a stock gasket, it blew within 10 mins of driving. Now I know full well thanks to this article & others like it. This is the easiest to grab a quick understanding.

Needless to say, th Merc engine had o'rings and receiver grooves fitted to block but, my guess is the stock gasket that went on this last time, didn't cut it. It moved inwards/outwards under pressure exherted by boost. The o'rings clamp the gasket & prevent it from slipping! Very friggin' interesting To think the engine nwas only run in too!

Now I need to replace these o'rings & order a copper gasket. I have 1 or 2 contacts from brousing the net on Merc forums but will contact Merc shop here in morning first to see what they have/know. I want this thing fixed this time right!

Thanks for continued input from you guys in this thread. Awesome of you
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Old 31-01-2010, 08:48 PM   #34
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from studying this failed head gasket it becomes too clear the water was coming in from the top. Corrosion all over the top surface of gasket. Figure warped head. There is evidence on most fire rings of uneven clamp pressure. Some are even jammed into bore from looking @ gasket others seem only lightly squashed down. Overheating could account for the uneven gasket depth though as the gasket bhas been crushed & not rebounded. Stock gaskets don't rebopund after being subject to extreme expansion & then contraction. Hence, ability for coolant to leak straight over surface & into pots!
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Old 31-01-2010, 11:17 PM   #35
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I can't see the O-rings properly is it the copper colour circle on the top of the deck. Try using a lamp without the flash because the camera can't focus in the dark

We don't use copper O-rings we use steel like MIG wire so they can never get squashed. The O-ring has 0.002" press in the groove so they don't fall out. It's nearly impossible to replace o-rings as there is not much chance finding the same size wire that will press into the groove, you can roll the wire and super-glue it if the wire is fractionally smaller. If you use 0.040" wire you don't really need a receiver groove but putting one in will hold more power. Any wire thicker than 0.040" must have a receiver groove. There must be one protruding o-ring that fits into the receiver groove, not twin o-rings that press on each other like one in the block and the head. It's best to put the O-ring in the block as it's more rigid, if you put it in the head you can't re-mill the head if it's bent without machining the o-rings. If the protrusion is more than 0.012" you must have a receiver groove. Ridgecrest make copper gaskets in different thicknesses. A O-ring can be used on a material head gasket if the ring rests on the outside (water side) of the fire ring.

By corrosion I mean in the 2nd head pic down on the white cyl right where the exh valve get close to the fire ring (6 o'clock position) there is a spot of missing gouged out Alum.

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Old 01-02-2010, 05:47 AM   #36
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I can't see the O-rings properly is it the copper colour circle on the top of the deck. Try using a lamp without the flash because the camera can't focus in the dark

We don't use copper O-rings we use steel like MIG wire so they can never get squashed. The O-ring has 0.002" press in the groove so they don't fall out. It's nearly impossible to replace o-rings as there is not much chance finding the same size wire that will press into the groove, you can roll the wire and super-glue it if the wire is fractionally smaller. If you use 0.040" wire you don't really need a receiver groove but putting one in will hold more power. Any wire thicker than 0.040" must have a receiver groove. There must be one protruding o-ring that fits into the receiver groove, not twin o-rings that press on each other like one in the block and the head. It's best to put the O-ring in the block as it's more rigid, if you put it in the head you can't re-mill the head if it's bent without machining the o-rings. If the protrusion is more than 0.012" you must have a receiver groove. Ridgecrest make copper gaskets in different thicknesses. A O-ring can be used on a material head gasket if the ring rests on the outside (water side) of the fire ring.

By corrosion I mean in the 2nd head pic down on the white cyl right where the exh valve get close to the fire ring (6 o'clock position) there is a spot of missing gouged out Alum.
No:1 o'ring is missing!!! (it is out of it's receiver groove!) So I'm stuffed now to replace it it seems? How could it be missing? The other 5 are steel, not copper & all have receiver grooves! I presumed you would use copper head gasket, not original steel as I have read in articles?

Also, no:1 & 6 on the head have had chips or something metal pound **** outta them & have bad pitting, same as 1 & 6 pistons. Has the fact that the turbo is flogged after just 1000k have anything to do with this? up/down movement like I've never seen & was rebuilt/highflowed before fitment!

I am resorting to pulling engine & getting it rebuilt again by a guy I trust. From sump to rocker cover! Phuck it! Unless after talking to a good builder I know, states otherwise? I hate cowboys working on anything else other than their pardners! Yeehar!! No what I mean This thing won't be reliable & is gonna crap me off everytime I drive it otherwise! Wondering whether it will overheat again. Phuckin' turbo can go root itself too How can it be brand new & have that much movement Cowboys should never have anything but their flesh tools in their hand

Now I'm up for a long, long haul. Bright side, I can start on Naughty in meantime, after I prep the bay etc of the Merc Some consolation I guess
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Old 01-02-2010, 08:50 AM   #37
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The O-ring still looks like it's there (red arrow). If it fell out find it and super-glue it back in.

There is a groove cut in the block and the O-ring is hammered in and should protrude 0.010", we call this the o-ring groove.

The receiver groove is cut in the head so that when the head is bolted down the copper(copper head gasket) or steel fire ring(material gasket) is pushed up in to the receiver groove. It accepts this bulge from the o-ring which locks the gasket in a up across down fashion(castellated).



This corrosion looks like it caused your problems.(red arrow)

Notice how there is no receiver groove in the head but you probably don't need one.

Bits of metal embedded in the head and pistons is common on std Toyota's, 7MGE especially. Smooth them out and it should be fine if no metal protrudes.

If the turbo has bad oil supply, ie pressure, volume or contaminated(maybe water) it can wear out quick.

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Old 01-02-2010, 09:49 AM   #38
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The O-ring still looks like it's there (red arrow). If it fell out find it and super-glue it back in
that's just the o'ring groove you can see then. The o'ring is lost.

The bores have that horizontal ridge line I spoke of, running across bores. This is what I don't like the most
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Old 01-02-2010, 08:10 PM   #39
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a better look shows @ least 2 of the bores have vertical rust lines where water has run & actually rusted the steel. You can actually feel pitting with your finger nail up the bore on one. I think I will be tossing this block for a good 2nd hand one & have it rebored. Problem is, I can't tell what oversize the forgies are @ this point. No numbers on piston top. Unless they're stamped on the underside? If they are stock bore size, the blocks history think & I will haver to source a perfect block. These blocks were built to do amazing mileage so, may not be impossible. Just a pain to find & pick it up, deliver it etc.

Engine is ready to be jossled out once I get time off work to pick up a hoist.

I hope I can wiggle engine off box without dropping tailshaft etc. Will be tight with torque converter attached though. hmmmmmmm, fun ahead

I have thought about getting a later model, bigger displacement engine but, Stand Alone would have to be flashed ($$$) & I'd loose the forgies for sure. It's going to be a long haul for this first stage I think
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Old 01-02-2010, 08:35 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaughtyGT View Post
well I'm stuffed? Heads off & a look @ the block shows no:1 bore o'ring missing?????? Also, on the head, no:3 valves are white whilst 1 & 2 are dark grey/black & 4, 5 & 6 are brown! There are pit marks on no:1 & no;5 port surround on head & 1 & 5 pistons. Something has gone through IM? Also, Turbo (less than 1k since rebuild) has more play in it (up/down not side/side) than an 8 week old pup!

How can the turbo have that much play in it after a rebuild? I have the freakin receipts for all the work! $900 almost for the turbo. $5,500 for engine & that's just the basic build.

hmmmmmmmmmmm?????????????????

2 of the 3 bores I can see depth in have like a raised ridge about 1 1/2" to 2" down bore?????

really getting interesting for engine with fluckall k's on it

Oh,,,,also, due to the stinking head bolts being so difficult to get out. They were cacked in old greasy shat! I managed to drop one washer down the timing chain cover into block. I do hope it hit the fluckin' sump? Gotta love some of these cowboy engine builders

I thought the block surface had to be dead flush. Bore O'ring's included? These are all raised except the one that appears missing? The 6 metal collars on head gasket that surround each pot would need to crush down onto these rings.
The "pitting"on the deck of the piston crowns is caused by either something hitting it or if ti looks like bubbling, its been boosted and that's detonation on the crowns...happens all the time to B6T and BPT when people do stupid **** to them

If the turbo is a BB unit, run some oil through the oil inlet and spin the shaft, if the play is there, the turbo is stuffed but BB turbos use the oil to centre the shaft so give it a go...having no oil in there while it sits there and then suddenly turning it is bad for the bearings as well...

The ridges in the bores are from the incorrect end gaps on the comp rings and really bad honing perhaps...these are usually honed out when you get oversized pistons...has the engine been honed or oversized?...

The "bore O rings" are actually refereed to as "fire rings" because they seal the combustion pressures from the water galleries etc ITS almost impossible for them to be missing as its part of the HG?????...............

This engine has had the raping of its life and was rebuilt by what sounds like a dodo bird...

Its really funny but Im actually in the middle of rebuilding a BMW engine for my boss at work...mainly just a re ring and re seal but Ive done everything properly..
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