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Old 02-02-2010, 06:31 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zappy65 View Post
The "pitting"on the deck of the piston crowns is caused by either something hitting it or if ti looks like bubbling, its been boosted and that's detonation on the crowns...happens all the time to B6T and BPT when people do stupid **** to them
you can actually see shape of oblong filings on part of the head surface & the pitting is like you got a cold chizel & bashed both head surface & piston tops

Quote:
Originally Posted by zappy65 View Post
If the turbo is a BB unit, run some oil through the oil inlet and spin the shaft, if the play is there, the turbo is stuffed but BB turbos use the oil to centre the shaft so give it a go...having no oil in there while it sits there and then suddenly turning it is bad for the bearings as well
I don't think Garrett/Airesearch T03/4's are BB? There is a small, perfect u-shaped chunk out of one compressor wheel blade, @ the back too I can't see any surface scrapes though on either the compressor snout bore or the turbine bore

Quote:
Originally Posted by zappy65 View Post
The ridges in the bores are from the incorrect end gaps on the comp rings and really bad honing perhaps...these are usually honed out when you get oversized pistons...has the engine been honed or oversized?
Can't tell until rebuilder looks @ it/pulls it down. There are no number markings on the piston tops, perhaps they are on the underside?

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Originally Posted by zappy65 View Post
The "bore O rings" are actually refereed to as "fire rings" because they seal the combustion pressures from the water galleries etc ITS almost impossible for them to be missing as its part of the HG
no, the block has been grooved & o'ringed! Not the head. HG is a stocky. This engine was meant to withstand a rediculous amount of grunt. The turbo was high-flowed @ time of rebuild also. I agree the engine builder needs to stick to using his hand for a non-metal tool!

Quote:
Originally Posted by zappy65 View Post
This engine has had the raping of its life and was rebuilt by what sounds like a dodo bird...
I can't believe what this engine has been subject to. You could cry just staring @ it. $$$$ for what? The engine bay has been cut/modified/heat shielding & steel plate everywhere to withstand the extreme heat from dump pipe almost bhard up against bay firewall. The LPG mixer conversion to the IM etc. The exhaust system looks like someone took alot of effort to get it right. Bends & all. Looks alot older than 3-4k though

I just hope I can reuse the forgies with a new set of rings but I don't like my chances @ this stage

Thanks for input & info mate, appreciated!
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Old 02-02-2010, 08:26 AM   #42
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That block doesn't look too bad probably just needs a power hone. Unless the bore is split which is rare unless the bore walls are thin(only have seen Clevos split). A pressure test will tell you. Take it to a block boring shop for advice.

If the ring gap was wrong and the rings butted it would crack the ring lands on the pistons. Look for shiny spots on the ends of the rings like if the gap closed up and they were rubbing, and also snapped ring lands.

When they bore a block you have to supply the pistons new or old and they measure them and bore the block to suit. Just measure the bore for the piston size.
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Old 02-02-2010, 04:14 PM   #43
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will be pulling engine out this week & taking complete block to rebuilder. He can go right through it then & give me the run down. I need this car ultra reliable as it's going to go on many a trip as our weekender/interstater up ahead when I get holidays

There is a stock, unopened 300E Merc in US runnng twin turbotechnics turbos @ 7-10psi boost, ran 7psi for 68k miles! Now is trying 10

This is the reply I got from him:

Stock head gasket on a M103-12V is fine for turbo applications.
The stock engine has a 9.2:1 compression ratio which easily can do 10psi boost with the proper AFR. I'm running twin Garrett T2's on stock internals with about 68K miles on it. At 7 psi it pulled 300 lbft torque at the rear wheels on a load dyno. Currently increased to 10 psi but not yet dyno'd.


If this is true, my cars' engine should take 3x the power this was putting out, maybe more.

There is a merc turbo specialist on a US forum (peachparts) that I may pay a visit once engine is looked @. Few merc forums mention it.
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Old 04-02-2010, 08:49 AM   #44
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Spoke to Gas Research (used to be @ Hallam here in VIC, now in QLD) they don't do injection just carb/convertors.

There is a guy near me here in Vic that does do the liquid injection that was alluded to. $5k+ & totally different set up than LPG cylinder. This guy I will be talking to this morn' can sort out the mixer.

I still believe corrosion & heat played the ultimate part in damaging this engine. Bad tune? wrong set up? Even the convertor water lines are rusted through. Well, @ least I got on to the right guy for the job. Now I gotta find time to pull engne @ get it to the builder first, then this as guy.
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Old 04-02-2010, 10:17 AM   #45
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located the AMG gasket but need to sit down & crack a beer before I ask the price from them. It is the one for 3.2L engine. Only stroke is different, std bore.
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Old 05-02-2010, 08:25 AM   #46
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Since found out that although you retard timing with boosted petrol, you advance it with boosted LPG! Perhaps previous engine builder/tuner didn't know this? This would explain the detonation/heat issues to the 2 cylinders & then the miriad of dramas poor engine suffered

Man this is a steep learning curve Sourcing world over, not many of these Merc's have had serious mods yet alone bosting. Even then, they are merely Turbotechnic Twin Turbo kits bolted on stock 3.0L engines with accurate AFR tweeking. That's it! Stock head gasket can handle heaps of HP & 7-10psi 420odd HP seems OK

One guy who seems to rule the roost so to speak amongst US forums is running a GT45 on stock 3.0L engine producing 650HP via 1000cc injectors with Megasquirt Stand Alone. Fark! He has custom manifolds & I think AMG head gasket. There what they use for 10.5:1 CR NA set ups.

A bit of misinformation floating around though & phluck all concerning boosted LPG. Mainly due to ignorance & price of conversion along with fact they have cheap as E85 in some US states (cornbelts) Something RodHog was alluring to in the Boosted LPG thread I started

I don't think this engine will resemble the old build too much btw (evil snicker) Time isn't on my side though. I have to get Naughty up & going sooner or later & it's got enough sorting of bits & pieces to give you an extreme migraine Double Trouble!
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Old 08-02-2010, 09:33 AM   #47
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spoke with LPG installer this morning. The set up was wrong by way of only utilising the 1 convertor (vaporiser). It needs to be set up with a 2nd then dynoed. Dyno with LPG is quite cheaper than petrol due to the simplicity of mixer set up. One good thing i suppose.

There is no chance of converting back to Petrol as it has been completely modded for gas. Would cost a fortune now.

LPI? No way, to expensive for the job & may not even be viable kit for one available.

Taking engine to builder today also. Now it is getting somewhere

I'm chasing a very conservative 400rwhp. Merc 3.0L engines can do past this stock but I have to consider the rest of the drive train & reliability. If I am going to go through all this crap with this car I want reasonable figures @ the end baybe blue!!! Don't give a toss about figures personally, just that I can now I am getting engine rebuilt so, why not? At least I don't have to worry about injectors. All I have to do is increase gas jets

Turbo size/type is the next consideration that will determine hp figures ultimately.

Progress sort of
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Old 09-02-2010, 07:20 AM   #48
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Engines out & @ the builders

Here's some epic removal pics haha What a bee-itch to get out. No room, had to raise/lower engine & box so many bleed'n times. The P-Steering hose got caught after tying everything up & taking deligence with it all. Got caught round' the mount rubber block After about 10 mns of tugging...............saw the prob then, woosh, out!

I swear those engines were custom fit to engine bay. Look @ pics! hehe no wonder the larger capacity later six's were stroked not, bored out. Wouldn't have got em' in there!

Sooooooooo close or what!





cracked!



ready to pull out



out!





Aftermath

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Old 10-02-2010, 08:09 PM   #49
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Verdict from builder...........absolutely shagged! The engine has seen it's last mileage I'm afraid. Block surface is so uneven no wonder head gasket kept blowing. Cylinder bores were buggered. Heaps of piston slack.

Not to mention stock Mercedes engine parts are stronger than after market parts. Only if you choose to excel 700hp do you then need the H-beam rods. Lesson for young Merc players

The light @ end of the tunnel though. I spoke to Merc' spares dealer/Importer here in Vic. The one I sourced the reco' head from. He has a 90' model 3.0L with just 100,000kms (60,000miles) on it! It's currently in a Merc being pulled apart fopr spares. He wanted $1500 for it (that's with taking back the reco head again) but under the condition he got to install it. $1000 for install including I guess injectors, lines, harness etc for petrol? Plus, cost of anything they found they had to replace would be extra.

However, when I mentioned more clearly that he would be dealing with LPG & a turbo, & I didn't thing he would be able to get it sorted, he went quiet for couple of secs then said, you can have the engine for $1000 change over. Long motor without accessories How cool is that! Now I have a good low klm engine to start with properly & reliably. So rapped!

I know EFI is the bees knees. Just the $$$$ & effort to get it. I'll talk to LPG guy again & see if he can source me some starter injector kit & then I'll be better informed. There's just other stuff I need to do for engineers cert' already.

Will think on this thoroughly though over next few days.
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Old 10-02-2010, 08:14 PM   #50
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Alright, put it back together and get it tuned, STAT!
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Old 10-02-2010, 11:16 PM   #51
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dude sory about the engine hey. but great find with the new motor. lol wish u where up in qld with the rest of the qld crew so we coudle see these beasts :P plus i love this picture of the 323 :P



good to see she is goin strong and clean too
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Old 11-02-2010, 06:38 AM   #52
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hey mat, wish I was up there too @ times. You guys seem to do more as a group then we do down here Thanks guys again
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:57 AM   #53
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Here's the latest low-down on Project.

Engine will be out of donor car next week. Coming with the IM so I'll have a spare to use with Gas install. I will have a bit of stuff to organise like stall convertor, few lines that were cut before I install it though. Biggest hassle right now is getting Turbo looked @ for wear. Mainly the time to get it to shop along with ext system sorted I want to go 3" in place of 2 1/2-3/4 it has now. It's all rusted & crap anyway but @ least I have it a a template for bends so, hoping I can get dump/down made off the old ones & then get rest done @ ext shop once install is complete. Then, get it to LPG guy

After speaking @ length with Boss @ Swift Automotive here in Vic (Gas Research Specialist/Installer) I'm convinced he can get the engine to run with Mixer set up. He is responsible for present quickest LPG turbo drag car in Aus, using the mixer set up. Apparently the up-to-date technology incorporated by GR is quite spiffy compared to the older set ups people are familiar with. The US are lagging behind us. Important considerations necessary when using mixer are feed line diameter; convertor capacity/number of & of course, proper tune.

Secondly, there is available a primer pump that is used to alleviate cold start time/backfiring, common with older set ups.

Thirdly, by way of protecting the turbo, he runs a seperate oil filter so sump oil-to-turbo is double filtered, allowing turbo seal longevity.

He shyed away from big HP numbers due to ignorance of engine capability. When I told him Merc engines were factory built stronger than modified engines & 100k on a Merc was like 30k on other engines, he sorta got interested. I need to keep working with him on this point I'm afraid

Forthly, he has offered to make up a custom exhaust manifold, similar to a spaghetti one in Europe they do that is unbelievable. Allows spool up @ low revs with large turbo. He uses 16 guage steampipe with tig welds. I'm sending a pic of the european one for him to see how they make them & whether he can match quality. If he can, saves me OS freight charges

So, by going with mixer I'll save $5k! (4k extra with LPI & up to $1k for Stand Alone necessary for this mod. This means I can now get the custom spagetti ext mani!

Also, to lower turbo lag, considerig I'm using auto trans, I need to look @ turbo size/condition. I may go bigger compressor but leave turbine diameter as is. Stall convertor; custom ext' mani'; ext' system mods etc all need careful consideraton. Lots a fun yet before it's on the road. Hopefully, it will be before winter though.

I'll wack some pics up of EM soon as my browser lets me upload again It's blocking all passwords & not remembering them.
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Old 12-02-2010, 05:38 PM   #54
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Was put onto a genuine old-school turbo guy today by a bloke @ equipment hire place who used to send him his turbo wok when he was in the performance engine building game. What a blessing man Just south of Melbourne CBD @ Moorabbin.

He checked over my high-flowed Garrett & said, even though it has copped a bit of wear, it's still OK for a while. Should be good for 450hp. The chip out of the compressor wheel was purposely machined as part of the prior balancing when it was high-flowed. This is one big saving. Means I can use it to get car up & running & to the Gas Research techy & get it all modded up properly & dynoed If anyone wishes to get into contact with this guy for turbo servicing, rebuilding etc. Just PM me. Btw, other shops want from 500+ to replace seals & bearings. He said he'd do it for me for couple of hundred. parts aren't that expensive really. Obviously if anything more extensive is requested, it will be more. He shoots straight from the hip so to speak.

Things are working out after such a shock I copped with car Now I can truerly smile a bit! Saving some money so I can put it into stuff I really need ASAP. I feel things are moving along well considering the enormous task I have ahead to get this thing running perfect before winter. Mainly time to do it all as I am fitting engine; ext system; somewhat modded IC piping myself. The initial get-up-go anyway cause I have no help down here lol. I may have to go bigger IC piping. Outlet piping anyway.

The new engine was pulled out of the salvage Merc today so, hopefully it will be sent out next week

Been driving around south Melbourne for last 7hrs.......exhausted & having a beer here @ home now hehe
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Old 15-02-2010, 05:42 PM   #55
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TCT stall convertor specialists here in Vic are doing up torque convertor & will be ready Wed or Thurs Not cheap though but stally will be 2500rpm This was a necessity with auto trans & LPG/turbo combination. Stock box would be a bit ordinary imo. LPG & lag isn't really something to write home about No power benefits with LPG without the boost kicking in if you know what I mean No fuel pumping (so to speak) so I am trying to eliminate lag as much as poss'. I should know a better picture of what revs boost will kick in once I sort the spaghetti ext' manifold out.

Finding the time is the big killer for me @ moment
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Old 15-02-2010, 05:45 PM   #56
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What will that do to your revs at 100kph? Cause if it normally revved lower than that, won't it now not rev any lower than 2500rpm?
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Old 15-02-2010, 05:50 PM   #57
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nah Gav. That's what I thought so I asked the specialist. How he explained it is, when applying brakes, 2500rpm will be when tyres will lose traction. You can move off the mark @ lower speeds but it won't allow you to pull hard until the boost comes in. That's the theory. So, anything from 2300 up to 3000, should see good take off & spool, with auto ablidging it rather than trying @ lower revs like a sausage dog trying to race after a rabbit, waiting till' it gets greyhound legs some day lol

edit: that metaphor really sounds wierd after reading it again.....sorry

edit edit: gotta realise the difficulty with turbo/auto relationship that is bound to be there is personified due to LPG fueling the thing. I don't want auto behaving like a bad link in the chain
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Old 15-02-2010, 05:57 PM   #58
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I still don't get it.
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Old 15-02-2010, 06:05 PM   #59
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imagine how I felt when he explained it 3 times hehe I kept telling himm I wanted it to be 2300, he kept insisting, 2500.....figure?

I think he knows better than me so, bugger it. Long as it transforms the slow auto into something more like a jogger
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Old 16-02-2010, 05:31 AM   #60
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Here's a few pics of the manifold I'm hoping Peter over @ Gas Research can replicate. This one is furbished to order in Sweden. Perfect craftsmanship mas you'll see in pics:

















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