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Old 23-06-2005, 10:21 PM   #61
wiredone
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rod: i am giving advice from personal experience... i don't think anyone wants to go through a motor... safety is first and when starting with a motor such as ours there is no simple way about it to be 100% sure that everything will be fine for a VERY long time...

You buy and upgrade for a BMW or something expensive and it costs 10-15K but they give you brakes, internals and the lot, not just a turbo and cooler... it is worth spending the money up front and saving yourself the head aches... i know this only because TDK and i have had so many of them (head aches) its not funny... The australian model is different from the US model in many ways so reading the msprotege.com forums should always be considered a guide when it comes to engine stuff.

As i always say, i may come across as being harsh by saying that certain things are a must in the long term but i am trying to save someone the dramas we had to go through... hence why both TDK and i are running internals... it became dangerous on autralian pump gas to be pushing the AFR so close for long periods of time(what happens when you get a cold day with bad fuel?)... your ignition system starts to give out, your radiator starts to struggle.... over long periods of time things start to happen to the whole setup that can't be seen in advance... i am trying to bring these facts to the table....

As with all advice it is just that... if someone wants to go bolt a turbo on, run no cooler and boost it i won't stop them (i know thats not what people are going to do but point made) but what i will do is tell them how it was for me... and answer any questions (try to be as helpful as possible)

Although it is starting to become clear to me that most things i post or say seem to be taken in the most negative light by rod, from attacking comments on "hokey street racing" to telling me what i have done wrong with my setup. All these things are behavious for which i have no understanding of why, as i have always been outgoing and talkative with him.

2c out... (not a flame war starter just finding myself defending my reputation)

As with always if someone needs some help i will happily answer any question they have about running turbo... come to the dark side... =p


preeman80: clutch is easy to start with (low boost) i recommend either the ACT 350hp hybrid, although it does wear very quickly or better still for the same money a SPEC clutch as they last and have stock pedal feel even with the stage 4 and 5... check them out www.specclutch.com


Also Twilight is right about the compression ratio... hence why with our crap fuel our higher compression ratio and our hot intake temps, we need to take more care than the guys in the us to boost our puppies...
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Old 23-06-2005, 10:39 PM   #62
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true that
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Old 25-06-2005, 02:56 PM   #63
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Also Twilight is right about the compression ratio... hence why with our crap fuel our higher compression ratio and our hot intake temps, we need to take more care than the guys in the us to boost our puppies...

doug u need to read b4 u leap i was trying to let use no not eveyone is after big hp or drives there car the way u do so they wont blow the crap out off it if they look into it properly an u dont need all the engine hardware u do

as 4 compression ratio,s no 2 cars are the same so i suggest everyone has theres checked b4 playing around or assuming its something that it may not b

us fuel runs 98 octane an we have the same here at the bowser also us temperatures mostly are higher then here in oz
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Old 25-06-2005, 08:05 PM   #64
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the fuels may be the same octane, however the overall quality of the fuel sucks arse in comparison

anyway, are you saying you have 9.1:1 compression pistons? different from every other australian delivered sp20?
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Old 25-06-2005, 08:27 PM   #65
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thats what mine has been checked at yes , as for every other sp20 i say have it checked rather then assume
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Old 25-06-2005, 09:03 PM   #66
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i assume you mean yours was checked with a compression tester not taking the engine apart and check the pistons individually?

either way, if you think you have 9.1:1 pistons you have cause to get 9.7:1 pistons from mazda due to false advertising.
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Old 26-06-2005, 12:07 AM   #67
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it would be very strange if rods car had a lower compression ratio than most of Sp20's but hey stranger things have happened, no 2 cars are exactly the same.
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Old 26-06-2005, 09:21 AM   #68
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Rods not saying he doesn't have 9.7:1 pistons, he's saying they only achieve 9.1:1 real world compression! This is like my auto only made 87kW at the flywheel instead of the advertised 92kW at the flywheel, and Craig's feels like it makes 95+...

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Old 26-06-2005, 01:45 PM   #69
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please tell me how with a compression gauge you can get a 9.1:1 figure...

to find out the compression ratio you usually need to be able to do a leak down with a fluid measurement and need to calculate the stroke and distance between the piston at tds and the head...

a compression gauge will only give you a reading such as 160psi etc... not 9.1:1
from everything i have ever done with cars it would be nearly impossible to do with out the engine out... maybe an engineer with 40 years experience could calculate it if you gave him ALL the specs on the rods, pistons, stroke etc,,, all of which is very hard to find out without taking the engine apart... and still it wouldn't be spot on with him being able to do a complete fluid test to test the capacity at tds...

easy reading on how to calculate compression ratio
http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/54258/

online calculation tool if you have all the measurements...
http://www.torinocobra.com/Randys_tools.htm
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Last edited by wiredone; 26-06-2005 at 01:54 PM.
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Old 26-06-2005, 02:24 PM   #70
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it was a fluid test then a quik calculation to arrive a that figure i have quoted

as for all being the same that is never gonna happen guys , just like my standard motor dynoed at 71kw at the wheels in canberra but others only achieved 61kw

as for 9.7:1 pistons i dont want them as im turboing so lower the better

doug i no the fluid test is not 100% accurate but its goes close enough for me an my intentions , as for you other guys out there if ur turboing or supercharging im simply saying have ur own tested an dont rely on whats wrote in a book
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Old 26-06-2005, 04:14 PM   #71
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i still don't understand the fluid test is only part of the equation. it is done to calculate clearance volume you also need to know stroke and exact bore size including piston to bore clearances....

I would be interested to know for everyones sake how this was done as from what i know first hand and from what i have been told this is more than a 10 minute operation.

Yes no car is exact, piston to bore clearance over time reduces, and cylinder pressures decrease as the rings wear down and piston slap occurs. but with that token in mind it would be very hard to guarantee a 9.7:1 compression from factory for any manufacturer we are almost guaranteed a minimun of a couple of thousandths of an inch difference in bore size alone, but from a recent phone conversation with a guy i know from Mazda Tech in Melbourne all australian delivered SP20's and SR2's running the fsde run the same compression ratio.

This leads me to believe one of two things:
1. The calculation was incorrect
If you as you claim the car put out more power than most standard SP20's on this board then we should assume that unless you were using a vastly different fuel and modified na setup then a reduced compression ratio would give you less power than everyone else (hence why honda's NA engines all run crazy compression ratios like the S2000) which doesn't make sense.

2. There is something wrong
If the first point is incorrect and the claimed compression ratio is so then i strongly suggest that you either do a build with stock rings and bearings before going turbo so as to not kill a worn motor with lots of blow-by or have a mechanic do a really good once over and hopefully a bore skope to check for inconcistencies in the cylinder walls.

i will leave this for now as it seems the more i open my mouth the more information i give you to dig out of your theorectical "9.1:1" hole.
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Old 26-06-2005, 05:29 PM   #72
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You've both sufficiently made your points, and one of you's is giving me the ****s now. It's clear that all cars are not created equally, and I think we can happily leave it at that!

Gav.
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Old 26-06-2005, 08:03 PM   #73
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the only way to calculate compression ratio with the engine together is to find out how much volume the chamber holds at tdc and bdc then work out the ratio from there. to do that you'd have to take the cam out so that the valves are not open and it's not the easiest to do, nor 100% accurate.

so rod, you're going to turbo the car based on non-accurate calculations and going against every other australian delivered sp20 specs??? man you're brave. i can feel a blown engine comin' on...
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Old 27-06-2005, 07:35 PM   #74
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I think you all sound very knowledgable, but i dont think there is any need to fight people over the internet if they have a conflicting view to yours. Im not sure what Preeman is looking for out of his car but i would be safe in Assuming that he isnt looking for the same sort of power that doug and tdk are acheiving so he maynot have to strengthen his motor up with forged internals like some are suggesting.

From what i have read and heard the max boost i would run on a normal sp20 with stock internals would be 6 or 7psi as it sounds like the rods in our motors are like glass.

I think your best bet preeman is to go to an expert who has tunned/turboed a big range of cars and talk it out with them and see what they think, we know rodds and dougs stance in the issue, now its time to see what other people think.

I have spoken to someone who recently worked in the US with the Mazdaspeed protege and there general concensus is to keep boost levels very low as the motors dont like being boosted.
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Old 27-06-2005, 07:47 PM   #75
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adding to that point the yanks engines are truely 9.1:1. if that doesnt like boost, imagine how much 9.7:1 doesnt like boost.

this is where you have an advantage craig
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Old 27-06-2005, 08:01 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twilightprotege
adding to that point the yanks engines are truely 9.1:1. if that doesnt like boost, imagine how much 9.7:1 doesnt like boost.

this is where you have an advantage craig
im still seriously thinking playing it safe and going na, no where near as much money envolved and no where near as big a risk involved. If i make 100 or 105 kw at the wheels NA ill be over the moon a stock astra turbo only makes 100 kw at the wheels and can run low 7s and 15s id be stoked with that and i wont have all the headaches associated with turboed a car.

My engine maybe able to handle higher boost levels because of the low comp ratio, but at the same tiime i have heard that the 2.0 has a different gearbox that can handle the boost where as mine wouldnt hold up for long.And with all the new laws being passed concerning young drivers and turboed cars i can do with out the hassle of constantly looking over my shoulder everytime i decide to go for a drive.
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Old 27-06-2005, 08:20 PM   #77
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yep, sp20's get the G-box, you have the F'd-box.

the 1.8 can also handle higher boost because of the longer rod ratio (length of the connecting rod vs the stroke). less stress is on the weak rod because of this
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Old 27-06-2005, 08:22 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twilightprotege
yep, sp20's get the G-box, you have the F'd-box.

the 1.8 can also handle higher boost because of the longer rod ratio (length of the connecting rod vs the stroke). less stress is on the weak rod because of this
ok cool i get you, with the boxes is mine the same as the boxs that were in the older 323s eg the bg or ba.
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Old 27-06-2005, 08:25 PM   #79
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dat's it. ask gav about it. i'm sure he'll give you the run down on how bad it is (for several hours hehehe)
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Old 27-06-2005, 08:29 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twilightprotege
dat's it. ask gav about it. i'm sure he'll give you the run down on how bad it is (for several hours hehehe)
will do, im more interested to see what gav's car puts out once he has the engine management as that appears to be the key that unlocks the big power NA, id rather go NA and do it properly with good tuning than go Turbo cheaply and take shortcuts.
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