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Old 14-10-2013, 12:50 PM   #161
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Thanks Guys.
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Old 17-10-2013, 10:33 AM   #162
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Heres a question I proposed while I was trying to sleep last night:

We all know that with shorter rod ratios that the piston spends less time around TDC in comparison to a longer stroked motor. We also know that the stroke of the engine has a direct correlation on the piston acceleration.

That being said I understand that due to this our cars tend to love timing advance. I'm assuming that we love timing because it allows us to overcome the above factors and get a better burn.

Surely the above factors would be a problem in regards to out running the flame front? (At substantially higher rpms ofc) But given that E85 burns faster would that mean that the rpms at which we out run the flame front occurs higher in the rpm? And why is it that generally tuners increase the amount of timing? Granted more timing can equal more power (as E85 allows us to run more timing without detonation) but wouldn't the faster burning mean that we don't need to ignite the mixture as early though as well?

If anyone else has an idea let me know If no one knows I'll spend some time to sit down and more research on E85 *when I can find time* and ponder it on the weekend.

Doesn't really impact my build either way I just get curious about these sorts of things *shrug*
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Old 17-10-2013, 11:23 AM   #163
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Kris think about it like this.. E85 burns slower
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Old 17-10-2013, 08:43 PM   #164
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Kris think about it like this.. E85 burns faster
Fixed

http://www.howstuffworks.com/fuel-ef...fuel-works.htm
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Old 19-10-2013, 09:13 AM   #165
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Actually mats right.

The logic behind my original train of thought was that due to the structure of ethanol and its cooling properties was that itd vaporise and mix better with the air creating a faster burn due to this.

The reality is that the higher the octane number the slower the frame front.

The reason that you need to consume more E85 over petrol (excuse me if the below isnt 100% right it has been 5 years since I last did chemistry/physics) is the amount of energy that each liquid contains per unit.

To my understanding the amount of energy released is dependent on the structure of the chemical itself. Fuel as we know it is a hard fuel to truly calculate as the fuel itself is complex combination of hyrdocarbons (or also parafins IIRC) which when they ignite result in a greater density then the items which entered the chamber, this along with the act of a controlled explosion is what causes a petrol engine to be as efficient as it is.

Now the amount of energy released from petrol (cant remember if this number represents fuel in its entirity or simply Octane) is 33kj per unit, while the amount of energy released from Ethanol is 25kj per unit.

Thus, why more Ethanol is required to produce similiar to greater amounts of power.

As for why the increase in octane doesnt make sense in regards to Ethanol is that it simply isnt the hydrocarbon octane. You see when we say that we are using whatever value octane it draws the conclusion that there is x percent (depending on where you live) of the hydrocarbon Octane (C8H18) in the fuel we are consuming. Meanwhile Ethanols is C2H6O.

The key point to take away is that they are from the same family but Ehtanol is certainly not Octane and therefore, the statement that E85 has a higher Octane number has to be false, right?

What the industry has done is utilise the term octane to describe a liquids propensity to combust. Higher the value the more stable the liquid.

Which annoys the heck out of me.

EDIT: Oh and you see the addition of the Oxygen molecule to the hydrocarbon of Ethanol? That I think is the reason why E85 is considered to be a cleaner fuel. I havnt worked it out, not sure Ill remember how off the top of my head :S (Which makes me really sad as chemistry was one of my fav subjects at school).

EDIT 2: Oh and the less complex the hydrocarbon the easier it is to vaporise. (In fact CH4 is Methane which is already a gas).

EDIT 3: And yes I realise I've left some chemcial terms out, but trying to keep it simpler to follow then it otherwise would be.
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Old 20-10-2013, 10:13 AM   #166
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Man I love reading all your write ups, chemistry was one of the subjects I actually enjoyed doing in school, so I enjoy reading your hypothical conclusions with trying and learn something and gain a knowledge about it, after all it helps with my line of work with the understanding of the properties in the fuels available to the public, and the running of there cars on them.
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Old 20-10-2013, 04:11 PM   #167
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Man I love reading all your write ups, chemistry was one of the subjects I actually enjoyed doing in school, so I enjoy reading your hypothical conclusions with trying and learn something and gain a knowledge about it.
This!
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Old 20-10-2013, 04:20 PM   #168
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As above. Love the hardcore, digging deep attitude.
Just dont watch Breaking Bad and get ideas m,kay!
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Old 21-10-2013, 12:06 PM   #169
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Man I love reading all your write ups, chemistry was one of the subjects I actually enjoyed doing in school, so I enjoy reading your hypothical conclusions with trying and learn something and gain a knowledge about it, after all it helps with my line of work with the understanding of the properties in the fuels available to the public, and the running of there cars on them.
Thanks man.

It may be worth noting that curiously, because FS Engines spend little time around TDC that to get the most power we can from an expansion stroke that we need to ignite the fuel earlier to have a similiar affect to an engine that has a long rod ratio (i.e. K20/F20C/2zz). Because of the way that E85 burns slower, we will require more timing again to get a similiar burn to 98 let alone more power.

I know microtechs from memory have about +45 degrees of timing max or something. (Darryl?) Does this mean that even with aftermarket ecus that the potential is to run out of timing advance in the ECU before reaching the Ideal burn?

I hope that this isn't the case but I may find out soon enough if this is the case

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This!
Thanks Ryan.

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As above. Love the hardcore, digging deep attitude.
Just dont watch Breaking Bad and get ideas m,kay!
I've never actually watched that show tbh.

Drugs are a bit scary for me, at least the illegal kind. Mainly cause im a bit of a misanthrope and because of the effects that they have on people. I tend to find the logic idiotic and the people who take them to lack ambition and drive.

But that's a whole other kettle of fish.
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Old 21-10-2013, 12:13 PM   #170
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I dont even drink fella, i find it inhibits creativity...and budget somewhat. Call me prudish and you'd be right but my addiction is my car

Caffeine, nicotine, are my only vices to keep in control.
I'm with you on the substance front.
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Old 21-10-2013, 12:19 PM   #171
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I dont even drink fella, i find it inhibits creativity...and budget somewhat. Call me prudish and you'd be right but my addiction is my car

Caffeine, nicotine, are my only vices to keep in control.
I'm with you on the substance front.
Yeah I don't drink much (in terms of regularity and quantity).

Yeah everyone has there vices, mines good food, car and music. Sustainable vices I think personally

But yeah, never understood drug taking its like a temporary fix to feel good about yourself and your life. If your unhappy/stressed change something about your life so that your happy without requiring an addictive and often damaging substance.

But anyways enough with my off topic posts.
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Old 21-10-2013, 10:51 PM   #172
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So exactly how I look at poeple who take drugs, I have absolutely nothing what so ever to do with anyone who chooses to take drugs, it disgusts me and I hate it, like I get a really ( kinda hard to explain) but as soon as I know of some one taking them or hear about them, I go into this zone where all I want to do it leave and never ever associate with that person/ persons ever again, I just hate it that much. And I go quite for about 2 hours.

But this is off topic. Keep up the questional theory's I enjoy lissening and trying to help solve them. I wished things like this would cross my mine but I'm just to off minded that I don't think of a problem or worry about these types of things.


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Yeah I don't drink much (in terms of regularity and quantity).

Yeah everyone has there vices, mines good food, car and music. Sustainable vices I think personally

But yeah, never understood drug taking its like a temporary fix to feel good about yourself and your life. If your unhappy/stressed change something about your life so that your happy without requiring an addictive and often damaging substance.

But anyways enough with my off topic posts.
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Old 21-10-2013, 11:39 PM   #173
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The m'kay bit was in between the lines for 'drugs are bad, m,kay'!!! Anyway just reread entire build thread and realized its an NA BUILD!!!

Sweet. Always drooled over Orions spec list, and now this one . Good work on the adaptronic, the 440s are gaining popularity worldwide now it seems and Andy is an absolute guru, quite willing to offer advice and support.
Keep us up to date on your choice of tuner if you're willing to disclose that info, thats on my need to do list as well.
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Old 06-11-2013, 07:25 AM   #174
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Hoping this is the last of the parts that I need but ordered last night:
- Low temp thermostat (Unfortunatley the MS thermostat isn't made anymore )
- MSP Oil Cooler Kit
- Thermostat Gasket
- Bushings Kit for Gearbox should complement my Qford kit nicely.

I honestly cant think of anything else I need.
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:04 AM   #175
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice88 View Post
Hoping this is the last of the parts that I need but ordered last night:
- Low temp thermostat (Unfortunatley the MS thermostat isn't made anymore )
- MSP Oil Cooler Kit
- Thermostat Gasket
- Bushings Kit for Gearbox should complement my Qford kit nicely.

I honestly cant think of anything else I need.
There is a MazdaSpeed Protege oil cooler kit :0 since when???

psst you forgot beer/scotch to pay for mechanical work taking place in the next 3 weeks ;-)
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:19 AM   #176
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Since the MSP came out. Sits on the back of the block and uses coolant to cool the oil. Not quite as effective as an air cooler but a good air cooler with thermostat was going to cost around 400 dollars. Plus relocation kit.

This will be simpler, effective and has the benefit of being less pipe and therefore less pressure drop in comparison

Regarding scotch, that doesn't fall under parts
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:28 AM   #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice88 View Post
Since the MSP came out. Sits on the back of the block and uses coolant to cool the oil. Not quite as effective as an air cooler but a good air cooler with thermostat was going to cost around 400 dollars. Plus relocation kit.

This will be simpler, effective and has the benefit of being less pipe and therefore less pressure drop in comparison

Regarding scotch, that doesn't fall under parts
ow one of those things.. yer the series 1 BP's, BPT's, BPD's had these.. i have one somewhere at home actually lol.. where do the water lines come from and did you order them too??

so i take it no more oil cooler just the relaction kit??? and the extra line for the return line??
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:41 AM   #178
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I ordered the complete kit from Edwin.

And correct. Make life easier
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:45 AM   #179
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I ordered the complete kit from Edwin.

And correct. Make life easier
awesome

dont forget run in oil, oil filters, and scotch.. ESPECIALLY DONT FORGET THE SCOTCH
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Old 06-11-2013, 09:51 AM   #180
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lol man its getting close to my guess haha http://www.astinagt.com/forums/showp...9&postcount=74
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