Engine Rebuild

pzele000 · 26-02-2013, 12:55 PM

Hi,

After some thinking, I have decided to go down the rebuild path instead of engine swap path to address my current problems. FS-DE engine is not out at the moment so not sure what exactly needs to be done, however I would like to find out if there are any parts I might be able to order in advance to speed up the rebuilding process. (e.g. Head nuts). Also I would like know if there are any good shops in Australia that might be able to supply the items instead of ordering them from overseas.

High Ticket Items
- FS-ZE pistons (10:7:1 preferably) - I know SR MotorSports seems have FS-ZE (10:4:1) on offer.
- All new bearings (ideally I would like to go with Clevite)
- After market pulleys

Parts to get prior to engine being removed and inspected
- Head nuts
- Gaskets
- Valve Guides/retainers/springs

I hoping someone might have gone through the process already and might be able to point me in the right direction.

P,

Ice88 · 26-02-2013, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pzele000

Hi,

After some thinking, I have decided to go down the rebuild path instead of engine swap path to address my current problems. FS-DE engine is not out at the moment so not sure what exactly needs to be done, however I would like to find out if there are any parts I might be able to order in advance to speed up the rebuilding process. (e.g. Head nuts). Also I would like know if there are any good shops in Australia that might be able to supply the items instead of ordering them from overseas.

High Ticket Items
- FS-ZE pistons (10:7:1 preferably) - I know SR MotorSports seems have FS-ZE (10:4:1) on offer.
- All new bearings (ideally I would like to go with Clevite)
- After market pulleys

Parts to get prior to engine being removed and inspected
- Head nuts
- Gaskets
- Valve Guides/retainers/springs

I hoping someone might have gone through the process already and might be able to point me in the right direction.

P,

FS-ZE is 10.4:1 Compression, the MSF is 10.7:1 and is no longer made to the best of my knowledge. You can just order the pistons for an FP from europe to get the 10.4:1 compression. Generally the SR stuff is a rip off.

Why aftermarket pulleys? Whats wrong with the current set.

Will be much much cheaper to get an FS-DE and get all of the good gear including a better intake manifold for cheaper then you can rebuild.

EDIT: If your getting any of the above your mostly looking to get stuff from overseas man so expect lots of shipping.

TheMAN · 26-02-2013, 02:18 PM

why specifically do you want to rebuild the engine? it's going to cost you more than a nice low mileage FS-ZE from Japan in the end

I dislike underdrive crank pulleys... they don't have harmonic dampers and could damage oil pumps under high power levels

there are many things that needs to be replaced/done on a proper rebuild... new gaskets, new oil pump, new sump tube, machine work, etc.... all can easily set you back $2000

but if you insist, I can help with all the Mazda parts, including the FS-ZE pistons... they are much cheaper here in the US

pzele000 · 26-02-2013, 04:36 PM

Hi,

Ice

Thank you for the heads up about SR MotorSports. I do have FS-DE engine, so I believe you were referring to FS-ZE engine. The simplest reason for not going down the FS-ZE path is a piece mind. Talking to guys on the forum it would be around $1800 to get FS-ZE engine delivered from Japan. The engine would come without warranty and any sort of historical data, basically you are risking $1800 to get an engine that might be crap (unless you can make your way to Japan and pull it apart and see for yourself). With the rebuild I will have a greater control which is worth the extra $$ spent IMO.

TheMan
Thanks for the offer, will ping you privately.

P

TheMAN · 26-02-2013, 04:40 PM

phil gets his engines from a reputable wrecker in NZ... everything that he helped bring over have been in great condition so far

did you talk to him yet?

Clean_Cookie · 26-02-2013, 05:38 PM

Fwiw, I spent $2000+ before going to the shop. Reputable shop is expensive, so I am expecting a $2500-3500 bill, depending on what I get end up getting done. That's already $5k. Buy an fsze. Buy two. You'll still be miles ahead.

TheMAN · 26-02-2013, 05:55 PM

agreed
unless you're trying to get some ridiculous power out of the engine, there's no point in a rebuild... even with factory JDM parts

a worthwhile rebuild is forged lower compression pistons, and forged rods.... then slap a big turbo to it

HAIGHIE · 26-02-2013, 06:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMAN

agreed
unless you're trying to get some ridiculous power out of the engine, there's no point in a rebuild... even with factory JDM parts

a worthwhile rebuild is forged lower compression pistons, and forged rods.... then slap a big turbo to it

haha i love this ^^

yer bud best thing tp do is have a ZE put in will save you time and money and is a much better base to work with if you decide to start doing mods to the engine

Clean_Cookie · 26-02-2013, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMAN

agreed
unless you're trying to get some ridiculous power out of the engine, there's no point in a rebuild... even with factory JDM parts

a worthwhile rebuild is forged lower compression pistons, and forged rods.... then slap a big turbo to it

or high comp turbo + e85 =win.

Ice88 · 26-02-2013, 08:55 PM

Or alternatively higher compression pistons, longer rods and a FP crank xD

pzele000 · 26-02-2013, 09:21 PM

Yep, I talked to Phil already. He gave me the quote

. I will go down to my shop and see what figures they come up with. A bit puzzled however, it seems that all of you believe that having my engine rebuild with new parts is worse than getting a 2nd hand engine that might have 50,000 or so km on it without any warranty or inside knowledge into the life of the engine. There doesn't seem to be much to be gained by replacing my engine that has 60,000 km on it with another "similar" engine. I will still need to pay someone for doing the swap which is not going to be cheap (Perhaps $1800 engine + $1000 for the work, that is nearly 3k for old engine.). Of course, until my current engine is out I won't know the parts that need to be replaced. My hope is that head and block are within specs and don't need any significant machine work.

In terms of FS-ZE being a better platform, that shouldn't matter FS-DE and FS-ZE are almost identical. It shouldn't matter how many FS-ZE one buys unless the engines are almost new, you still end up with old engines with 10 year old parts in them. I don't want to go down the turbo path either. I would like to get few tweaks in during the rebuild, but keeping things pretty stock otherwise.

BG1.8sp · 26-02-2013, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pzele000

Yep, I talked to Phil already. He gave me the quote

. I will go down to my shop and see what figures they come up with. A bit puzzled however, it seems that all of you believe that having my engine rebuild with new parts is worse than getting a 2nd hand engine that might have 50,000 or so km on it without any warranty or inside knowledge into the life of the engine. There doesn't seem to be much to be gained by replacing my engine that has 60,000 km on it with another "similar" engine. I will still need to pay someone for doing the swap which is not going to be cheap (Perhaps $1800 engine + $1000 for the work, that is nearly 3k for old engine.). Of course, until my current engine is out I want know the parts that need to be replaced. My hope is that head and block are within specs and don't need any significant machine work.

His point is... Why spend $ on a rebuild with slightly higher comp for minimal gains?

And that you are better off buying aftermarket lower comp forged internals for the rebuild, that way you can boost it very reliably and actually see some good power figures. For around the same cost.

TheMAN · 26-02-2013, 09:47 PM

a rebuild costs almost as much as the car is worth, and even after it's all said and done, it's still just a Mazda and it's not going to change the car's value any... it's not going to be a monster engine either... all that money sunk into a basically stock engine, is that really worth it? Not to me it's not!

Ice88 · 26-02-2013, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pzele000

Yep, I talked to Phil already. He gave me the quote

. I will go down to my shop and see what figures they come up with. A bit puzzled however, it seems that all of you believe that having my engine rebuild with new parts is worse than getting a 2nd hand engine that might have 50,000 or so km on it without any warranty or inside knowledge into the life of the engine. There doesn't seem to be much to be gained by replacing my engine that has 60,000 km on it with another "similar" engine. I will still need to pay someone for doing the swap which is not going to be cheap (Perhaps $1800 engine + $1000 for the work, that is nearly 3k for old engine.). Of course, until my current engine is out I won't know the parts that need to be replaced. My hope is that head and block are within specs and don't need any significant machine work.

In terms of FS-ZE being a better platform, that shouldn't matter FS-DE and FS-ZE are almost identical. It shouldn't matter how many FS-ZE one buys unless the engines are almost new, you still end up with old engines with 10 year old parts in them. I don't want to go down the turbo path either. I would like to get few tweaks in during the rebuild, but keeping things pretty stock otherwise.

Where not saying you shouldn't rebuild (or at least I am), just that rebuilding your engine to FS-ZE spec is a waste of money.

You can do so much more with similar amounts of money that would be better then what the FS-ZE rebuild can give you.

Clean_Cookie · 27-02-2013, 12:23 AM

Btw. I spend $7k, make Double the hp. You spend 4k for less than 50hp? Either turbo or buy a second hand engine. If it lasts 2 years it'll save you 2k, service it properly Nd they will. My car came with a 315k old motor which still ran. 60k is nothing.

phildough · 27-02-2013, 08:18 AM

The FS-ZE also come with the far superior intake manifold that breathes much better at high RPM.
Rebuilding a FS-DE with ZE pistons wont gain as much power as what the ZE manifold alone does.
It is very hard to find an engine supplier that is willing to part out a ZE engine so you can get the manifold either.

maz sp20 · 27-02-2013, 08:40 AM

Just get a low klm FS-ZE....it would be your best way to go IMO

pzele000 · 27-02-2013, 12:30 PM

Hi,

Dam, it seems like everyone is against my idea

.

I understand all of your comments, having said that
- I am not looking for huge gains from the rebuild
- I don't want to resell the car and make money of it
- I want to have a reliable car to drive around for a few years to come
- I have a budget in mind, of course if the cost of the changes I am planning is over the value of the car I will look at alternative solutions.

P

TheMAN · 27-02-2013, 12:43 PM

we're trying to tell you what makes more economic sense
a rebuild for only 10-20hp more is NOT a smart way to spend that money

there are plenty of reliable low mileage FS-ZEs to be found

pzele000 · 27-02-2013, 01:14 PM

All good point taken

. I am still not convinced about the reliability claims for imported engines. I think it is more about luck than anything else.

26-02-2013, 12:55 PM	#1
pzele000 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Sydney Car: Astina, SP20, 2002 Posts: 68	Engine Rebuild Hi, After some thinking, I have decided to go down the rebuild path instead of engine swap path to address my current problems. FS-DE engine is not out at the moment so not sure what exactly needs to be done, however I would like to find out if there are any parts I might be able to order in advance to speed up the rebuilding process. (e.g. Head nuts). Also I would like know if there are any good shops in Australia that might be able to supply the items instead of ordering them from overseas. High Ticket Items - FS-ZE pistons (10:7:1 preferably) - I know SR MotorSports seems have FS-ZE (10:4:1) on offer. - All new bearings (ideally I would like to go with Clevite) - After market pulleys Parts to get prior to engine being removed and inspected - Head nuts - Gaskets - Valve Guides/retainers/springs I hoping someone might have gone through the process already and might be able to point me in the right direction. P,

26-02-2013, 02:18 PM	#3
TheMAN Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Car: . Posts: 2,623	why specifically do you want to rebuild the engine? it's going to cost you more than a nice low mileage FS-ZE from Japan in the end I dislike underdrive crank pulleys... they don't have harmonic dampers and could damage oil pumps under high power levels there are many things that needs to be replaced/done on a proper rebuild... new gaskets, new oil pump, new sump tube, machine work, etc.... all can easily set you back $2000 but if you insist, I can help with all the Mazda parts, including the FS-ZE pistons... they are much cheaper here in the US __________________ Protege FAQ, the best 323/Protege/Mazda3 resource enjoyed worldwide for 10 years

26-02-2013, 04:40 PM	#5
TheMAN Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Car: . Posts: 2,623	phil gets his engines from a reputable wrecker in NZ... everything that he helped bring over have been in great condition so far did you talk to him yet? __________________ Protege FAQ, the best 323/Protege/Mazda3 resource enjoyed worldwide for 10 years

26-02-2013, 05:38 PM	#6
Clean_Cookie obsessed-incomplete-broke Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Brisbane Car: BA Hardtop/Hatch Posts: 5,441	Fwiw, I spent $2000+ before going to the shop. Reputable shop is expensive, so I am expecting a $2500-3500 bill, depending on what I get end up getting done. That's already $5k. Buy an fsze. Buy two. You'll still be miles ahead. __________________ Worklog

26-02-2013, 05:55 PM	#7
TheMAN Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Car: . Posts: 2,623	agreed unless you're trying to get some ridiculous power out of the engine, there's no point in a rebuild... even with factory JDM parts a worthwhile rebuild is forged lower compression pistons, and forged rods.... then slap a big turbo to it __________________ Protege FAQ, the best 323/Protege/Mazda3 resource enjoyed worldwide for 10 years

26-02-2013, 04:36 PM	#4
pzele000 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Sydney Car: Astina, SP20, 2002 Posts: 68	Hi, Ice Thank you for the heads up about SR MotorSports. I do have FS-DE engine, so I believe you were referring to FS-ZE engine. The simplest reason for not going down the FS-ZE path is a piece mind. Talking to guys on the forum it would be around $1800 to get FS-ZE engine delivered from Japan. The engine would come without warranty and any sort of historical data, basically you are risking $1800 to get an engine that might be crap (unless you can make your way to Japan and pull it apart and see for yourself). With the rebuild I will have a greater control which is worth the extra $$ spent IMO. TheMan Thanks for the offer, will ping you privately. P

26-02-2013, 08:55 PM	#10
Ice88 Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Auchenflower, Brisbane Car: Blue SP20 Posts: 2,782	Or alternatively higher compression pistons, longer rods and a FP crank xD __________________

26-02-2013, 09:21 PM	#11
pzele000 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Sydney Car: Astina, SP20, 2002 Posts: 68	Yep, I talked to Phil already. He gave me the quote . I will go down to my shop and see what figures they come up with. A bit puzzled however, it seems that all of you believe that having my engine rebuild with new parts is worse than getting a 2nd hand engine that might have 50,000 or so km on it without any warranty or inside knowledge into the life of the engine. There doesn't seem to be much to be gained by replacing my engine that has 60,000 km on it with another "similar" engine. I will still need to pay someone for doing the swap which is not going to be cheap (Perhaps $1800 engine + $1000 for the work, that is nearly 3k for old engine.). Of course, until my current engine is out I won't know the parts that need to be replaced. My hope is that head and block are within specs and don't need any significant machine work. In terms of FS-ZE being a better platform, that shouldn't matter FS-DE and FS-ZE are almost identical. It shouldn't matter how many FS-ZE one buys unless the engines are almost new, you still end up with old engines with 10 year old parts in them. I don't want to go down the turbo path either. I would like to get few tweaks in during the rebuild, but keeping things pretty stock otherwise. Last edited by pzele000; 26-02-2013 at 09:26 PM.

26-02-2013, 09:47 PM	#13
TheMAN Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Car: . Posts: 2,623	a rebuild costs almost as much as the car is worth, and even after it's all said and done, it's still just a Mazda and it's not going to change the car's value any... it's not going to be a monster engine either... all that money sunk into a basically stock engine, is that really worth it? Not to me it's not! __________________ Protege FAQ, the best 323/Protege/Mazda3 resource enjoyed worldwide for 10 years

27-02-2013, 12:23 AM	#15
Clean_Cookie obsessed-incomplete-broke Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Brisbane Car: BA Hardtop/Hatch Posts: 5,441	Btw. I spend $7k, make Double the hp. You spend 4k for less than 50hp? Either turbo or buy a second hand engine. If it lasts 2 years it'll save you 2k, service it properly Nd they will. My car came with a 315k old motor which still ran. 60k is nothing. __________________ Worklog

27-02-2013, 08:18 AM	#16
phildough Banned Join Date: May 2006 Location: Brisneyland, Queensland Car: 2002 Mazda Frankenstina Posts: 2,868 View Photos By: phildough	The FS-ZE also come with the far superior intake manifold that breathes much better at high RPM. Rebuilding a FS-DE with ZE pistons wont gain as much power as what the ZE manifold alone does. It is very hard to find an engine supplier that is willing to part out a ZE engine so you can get the manifold either.

27-02-2013, 08:40 AM	#17
maz sp20 Senior Member Join Date: May 2011 Location: Tweed Heads Car: 2002 mazda sp20 hatchback Posts: 678	Just get a low klm FS-ZE....it would be your best way to go IMO

27-02-2013, 12:30 PM	#18
pzele000 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Sydney Car: Astina, SP20, 2002 Posts: 68	Hi, Dam, it seems like everyone is against my idea . I understand all of your comments, having said that - I am not looking for huge gains from the rebuild - I don't want to resell the car and make money of it - I want to have a reliable car to drive around for a few years to come - I have a budget in mind, of course if the cost of the changes I am planning is over the value of the car I will look at alternative solutions. P

27-02-2013, 12:43 PM	#19
TheMAN Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Car: . Posts: 2,623	we're trying to tell you what makes more economic sense a rebuild for only 10-20hp more is NOT a smart way to spend that money there are plenty of reliable low mileage FS-ZEs to be found __________________ Protege FAQ, the best 323/Protege/Mazda3 resource enjoyed worldwide for 10 years

27-02-2013, 01:14 PM	#20
pzele000 Junior Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Sydney Car: Astina, SP20, 2002 Posts: 68	All good point taken . I am still not convinced about the reliability claims for imported engines. I think it is more about luck than anything else.