Pinging On V6 Astina ??? Help ???

[jgibson]

Hey,
Yeah I have HUGE pinging issues on my 1994 V6 Hardtop. I love the look of the car but its costing me an absolute s**t load, so far $5k this year not including rego. I took it to mazda after the water pump gave up. They ending up replacing the brake pads, discs, shocks and coils, then found a prob with the rear brakes and had to recondition them. All of that cost close to $5k and just a few months later im yet again having probs with the brakes (strange grinding sound and lack of stopping power, but not always) and also shocks (hollow sound in rear and front right, also the ride is no better than before and the car rut rides badly on sydney roads). Anyway when I took the car to them they were meant to fix the engine pinging. They thought it was the timing belt or carbon build up, they apparently looked at / fixed these probs seeing its down on the invoice but still the car pings .. if not worse. Pinging occurs @ idle - 4000rpm (particularly at 3k rpm), when under greater load it becomes loader. Above 4000rpm stops almost instantly. When pinging there is basically no power, I can be doing 3000rpm in second and struggle, even on a flat surface (thats the worst ive experienced). Ive found that keeping the oil full helps reduce loudness but its still there and has an affect on performance. This leads to the other problem, the strange disappearence of engine oil. I have to top it up at least once a week. Goes from F to L in about 700-900kms using 20-50W oil, the car has done about 166k kms. It is not blowing smoke and I have failed to find any leaking in the engine bay. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thankyou boostedbadman so far your comments have been excellent. Its good to know im not alone.

ps. Just one other question. Unfortunately I have the automatic trans. which was also serviced by mazda. After the service ive been needing to use the hold button to shifter to force it to use/stay in lower gears. If I dont and I take my foot off the gas it goes right into top gear even if im on a steap slope, when I reapply the gas it will stay in this top gear unless I put my foot down. Even if I slow to say 20km/h on the flat then accelerate again it wont go below 3rd gear. What may be causing this prob, was it the service that mazda did or something else? Is it safe to use the automatic like a manual using the hold button, or will I damage the trans. I really cant afford anymore probs. Thanks again

Jack

[CRA23]

wow i must have a lucky engine ive never get any pinging...

if it stops at around 4000rpm it could be something to do with the vris(varible resistance intake system, this is what gives i that kick) cos it opens up at 4200rpm and lets more air in so it may be stuff built up in the intake manifold, go grab a can of the subaru upper engine cleaner,

for the oil comsumption i think u might have a blown head gasket i dunno how to check cos we cant look in to the radiator, but open the radiator cap on the left hand side of the engine(not when hot!!!!) and start the car and see if there is any bubbles in the in there, thats the only what i know how to check, but other ppl may be more helpfull

as for the auto(ive also got one) mine does change down but not untill i come to a complete stop, its really anoying i allways use the hold function i hardly ever just use it as a normal auto, i took my gear box to get serviced the other day not at mazda and they said said it had never been serviced before!, the magnets where supposidly 6x bigger than they were ment to be and wont last any more then 6 months, after i heard this i checked my owners manual and it said never to replace the auto fluid which this is totaly wrong, im goin to give mazda a ring and see what they have to say about it

[boostedbatman]

Mr Gibson
Oil!! and lots of it. Try jacking up the front end of the car and lookin up behind the engine some times when the valve cover gaskets get old they will leak but this is is the only easy way to find out if the rear is leaking on the RHS. If you can get enough head room and a torch up there have a really good look (especially around the power sterring pump for run off). Whilst under the car use your torch and check everywhere even the front where you may have been able to see from the top but just try it anyway.
Still no luck..........
( I dont normally condone this practice) but when the engine is cold and at night, psrk with a street light at your front bumper, then take off with no cars around like a madman and the right foot planted to the floor. Keep your eyes fixed to the rear view mirror and see if you can notice a brown haze from behind. You do this becuase a cold engine will not be as efficient as a warm engine and with cold rings and valve seals they will easily show signs of wear.
If you have noticed any bad smoking from doing this then we have a problem houston.
P.S. remember even a healthy engine will smoke a bit when cold at WOT but we are looking for lots of it
As for a busted head gasket is concerned these are possible examples of diagnosis (although Mazda shouldve picked this up at some point) Missing/low lumpy idle, excessive pressure in coolin system/ bubbles in radiator cap, water droplets from a warm engine through exhaust, water in oil (changes oil to creamy light coloured consistency)/excessive oil consumption, fouled spark plugs, water on piston tops (try and shine a torch down the spark plug recesses to see the piston tops with car in N and use a spanner to turn the engine via the crank with each piston being easier to view when at the top

VRIS....... as tim said this may be your problem. They are two round actuators mounted at the rear of your Intake Manifold (IM). Check the wiring loom is cliiped in securely and you should be able to push the needle in to activate the valve. If they feel a bit prone to "stick" then they may be the problem. Push the needle in and give a quick squirt of WD40 etc into the back of it. Munually activate the valve again to see if it frees up

As for the brakes I would go and stick a pole up Mazda and say WTF seeing they did the work

[jgibson]

Ok Ive had a look ... I found quite a thick coating of oil on the power steering hose and right front axle. I cant pin point where its coming from but it does sound like valve cover gaskets might be the cause. When I first start the car (cold) there is a loud lifter click that comes from the same spot the oil may be leaking, not sure that its relvant just thought id mention it. There is some carbon build up on the back of the car (near the exhuast) could just be from city driving though, I drive from Avalon to Randwich every week day. About the pinging. Im using 91OC fuel due to the very high prices, when I have used 95-98OC in the past the pinging is still there but not quite as loud.

[jgibson]

Just did some more testing. When I rev the car in N and on a cold engine there is blue smoke. I dont know what you consider to be a lot, but it didnt seem very normal. I cant find the two round actuators for the VRIS but ill keep looking. Thanks for the help.

[Caveman]

My V6 also has the loud lifter click when it's idling....this is cused by the hydraulic lifters sticking...normally caused by dirty oil. After a couple of recent oil changes mine has gone away.

Blue smoke from the exhaust indicates oil burning in the cobustion chambers....could be worn rings, or worn valve stem seals. If it's only when the engine is cold, most likely just the valve stem seals, if it's all the time, then more likely rings, and could be very costly.
Can you notice the smoke when you are driving around, or only when you are standing at the back looking at the exhaust.?....just trying to get a gauge on how much oil you are burning to see if it could equate to the amount you are losing.

[jgibson]

Well I cant see any smoke when the car is warm (driving and standing behind) but as I said before when I rev it on a cold engine then yes you can see it from inside the car but not when your moving.

[boostedbatman]

Blue smoke is okay its the dirty brown/black smoke you dont want to see.
Blue smoke is usually unburnt fuel, and the other is oil.
Being blue smoke when cold just means you have a normal emmission as the car will load up with more fuel when cold and if its not there when warm then thats great.
Get yourself a white cloth or tissue and reah over the Intake Manifold (IM) and wipe the rear seal of the valve cover and you will see where the crud is leaking from.
By all accounts it seems you have no real reason for concern with your oil as its not too dear to change the gasket.
As for the pinging on low octane fuel be careful. I understand that due to the cost of fuel an extra $4-5 per tank is a bit exxy for the use of premium but be aware that driving at Wide Open Throttle (WOT) could be the end of your motor.
The VRIS are right at the back on the IM next to the firewall and look like small ping pong balls with a ridge running around the centre.
If you still have problems I will PM you a picture. Better still check out my pics in Readers Rides and the rear view of my engine shows them in red. I have better pics if you need them
Let us know how you fare
Good luck

[nupes]

Mr Gibson,
Yeah I have the exact same pinging problems as you, the pinging starts at about 3K and btwn 3.5 - 4k I used to get this air shudder sound. These are two speperate noises. Yeah, I thought it was the vris butterfly valves being sticky so I cleaned the throttle body with some Subi throttle body cleaner but the VRIS noise still persisted. I also used to rev my car at idle to 4k + and watch the actuators click, so I knew there wasnt a prob with my VRIS as well

Last wk I had to take it into the mechanics to have a water pump changed because the bearings were worn. The mechanics also changed all of my external belts as well (alt, etc) as well as an oring in the power steering pipe. After that , MY MYSTERIOUS VRIS NOISE HAD DISAPPEARED ! Im still wondering how it stopped the noise, I know that the timing belt had to come off. Maybe the noise comes from something loose thats related to the timing belt, timing belt cover, water pump or ext belts and when the 1st vris valve opens to redirect the air, that area of the manifold is causing something to vibrate? Could even be something around the check valve and vacuum chambers ?

As far as the pinging noise is concered, I've tried using redex in the spark plug holes to clean carbon deposits in the combustion chamber but still pings. It seems to only do it mostly on short trips. For example, it will definately ping after I have filled up or taken a short trip to the shops or where there is a lot of start stop traffic light driving. Once the car is out on the open road the pinging goes away. I use Irridium plugs, top gun leads, had the battery changed, fill up on BP ultimate, had error codes checked and timing checked, use a K&N panel air filter. I reckon it could be fuel pressure related or my O2 sensor is stuffed (although it would have shown up on the error codes)

Cheers

Nupes

[jgibson]

I gave the VRISs a spray with WD40 and the pinging seems to have reduced significantly, but im not 100% sure yet. I just took the car for a trip up the coast and it seemed pretty good, also last night the was absolutly no pinging (perhaps cold air helped). Ive still got to do the trip to randwick tomorrow which will be the best test since there is more stopping and starting. I also need to check the oil leak, where is the IM seal.. under the VRIS?
Thanks.

[boostedbatman]

The leak will be the valve cover gasket
You will need to get the IM off first to get to the rear valve cover
There are 8 bolts and 4 nuts holding down the centre of the IM, there is also 1 bolt at the back of the IM on a bracket between the IM and the head.
You will need to remove the Brake Booster breather hose
Remove the wiring to the back of the VRIS
2 fuel lines
Seperate Throttle Body (TB) from intake pipe
Remove the coolant lines to the TB
Release throttle cable
And then the few vacuum hoses
Then you can get to the bolts for the valve cover and the gasket is attached to this

Just a small job??
But easy enough once you know how

[jgibson]

[IMG]D:\My Pictures\Sep\Picture 028 copy.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]D:\My Pictures\Sep\Picture 026 copy.jpg[/IMG]


This is the leak that I think is causing the prob. I found that there is a bad burning smell after driving up a hill or at speed, im guessing that it is this oil burning off and getting into the vents which are not that far away. Also after a few runs to uni I noticed that the pinging had returned and is pretty much as bad as it was before the VRIS check.

[jgibson]

Damn pics didnt work, sorry... ill have to post them later.

[boostedbatman]

Pictures need to be uploaded to the web first then linked from there
Try picturetrail

[Mr MX6]

Don’t suppose by pinging you are talking about cross firing? like the motor shudders under load?
could be the leads and or if you have oil in the spark wells..

pull the codes and see if the virs solenoids are working electrically.. And also do the paper test to check mechanically..

paper test..


Start the car
then put a little bit of flat paper in each VRIS actuator, so it will fall out if, and only if, the VRIS moves. Then take the car for a drive, using the whole rpm range and a bit of wide open throttle, then look to see if the little bits of paper have fallen out. If they have both come out the VRIS are fine.

Remember, VRIS #2 only actuates at Wide Open Throttle around 4250 rpm, so you need to drive accordingly.


pics of kldes virs... but shoul help you find it..








How to check for error codes

Locate and open the "Diagnostic" box under the hood. It's between the battery and the fender. Below is shown a representation of the pins inside the Diagnostic box:
The pins labeled "TEN" (which stands for "Test ENgine" by the way) and GND (ground) are the pins of interest. Make sure the ignition is OFF and use a paperclip to jumper the TEN and GND pins together.

connect a LED+Resistor or 12V-LED to the B+ terminal, and the free resistor - end to the FEN terminal. this will flash out the codes, you can also use an analog multy meter (on 12vdc) .

Turn on the ignition (do not start the car) and watch the pulse . After about 4-seconds, it will begin to flash any codes that may be stored. If there are no codes stored, the CEL will not flash (it will go out.)

Malfunction codes are generally 2-digit affairs although Mazda decided to get tricky. They include 2-digit codes that involve '0' (zero) as a digit. Code 02 is one example. Code 10 is another.
The codes are broken into a 10s digit and a 1s digit. The 10s digit is flashed first, followed by the 1s digit. The digits are distinguished by the length of time they flash the CEL. 10s digits flash the CEL on for 1.2-sec while 1s digits flash the CEL for 0.4-sec. Digits that are '0' (zero) flash the CEL exactly zero times.


Note how the presumably single-digit code '3' flashes the CEL for short-pulses only. This indicates the 10s digit is zero for this code. The image below illustrates what the CEL would do if, say, a code 24 were the only code present. Note that it's "dark" (off) for 4-seconds, then the code flashes (long flashes are 10s digits, short flashes are 1s digits). Since this is the only code, there is a 4-second pause between flashing sequences.

If you find yourself saying "Uh-oh"...
Notice in the above drawing that the TEN pin is located right next to the B+ pin... If you screw up and connect the B+ pin to the GND pin, you'll cause a short circuit when the ignition is switched on. You'll probably notice that the instrument cluster gauges don't work any more, along with other systems of the car. If you've done this, check the METER fuse in the fuse panel inside the car. Once you've replaced it, your gauges should operate as normal.



Interpreting the Codes:
There are quite a few codes. The following table shows the codes for the kl v6, and what they mean.

Code Circuit Diagnosed
02 'NE2' crankshaft position sensor
03 'G' camshaft position sensor
04 'NE1' camshaft/crankshaft position sensor
05 Knock sensor
08 Volume Air Flow sensor (VAF)
09 Coolant temperature sensor (CTS)
10 Intake air temperature sensor (IAT)
12 Throttle position sensor (TPS)
15 LHO2S inactivation error
16 Exhaust gas recirculation (EGR) system
17 LHO2S inversion error
23 RHO2S inactivation error
24 RHO2S inversion error
25 Fuel pressure regulator control solenoid
26 Canister purge solenoid
28 EGR vacuum solenoid
29 EGR vent solenoid
34 Idle air control (IAC) solenoid
41 VRIS #1 solenoid
46 VRIS #2 solenoid
67 LFAN relay (1993 only)
69 ECTF sensor (1993 only)



but it could be a blocked CAT.. .

[jgibson]

wow... thats very detailed, thanks. im not sure if i mentioned before, but when pinging is bad the cars performance is really really reduced and doesnt really want to pass the 3000rpm mark (this is where pinging is at its worst). its also feels like there is a lot of resistance (rough acceleration) in the engine making it quite annoying to drive.

[Mr MX6]

I have my moments.. lol
I'm not trying to be rude, but do you know what pinging is?
or is it more of a mis-fire? have you swaped your leads lately?

[jgibson]

well ive been told by others that its pinging, but yea i also wondered if it was a misfire since atmosphere temp also plays a role in how bad it gets. when its a hot day, the 'pinging' is at its worst. however it is also affected by many other variables and that is a serious problem cause ive already spent so much money on it i dont want to have to buy new components for everything that may be causing the prob. anyway if it was a misfire what could be done to solve the prob? thanks for the help

[skippy]

I was reading through and was going to suggest leads as the poss cause.

Mine used to ping a bit when I first had it, (well i think it was pinging) and anyway my leads showed some bad arching signs,
I have since changed to Splitfire leads and NGK iridum Spark plugs,
and It very rarely pings any more and when it does I usually put it down to crap fuel, ie fill up and within 2km pings for first time in several months, (BP Carlingford, Pennant hills road, NOT HAPPY)

I also got all new gaskets about 2 months ago and that crap fuel was the first ping since.

Futher more on a fair few reviews I read they mentioned the leads as a bit of a problem with the V6 (but nothing else consistantly), so have a real good look at them.

Mine where custom made by Spiltfire for like $150-200 I think, well I do remember they where about $100 cheaper than form Mazda.

Even I can change leads myself.

VRIS Actuators however totally confuse me,

IS that needle like bit supposed to go into the hole it comes from or which way does it move, cause mine sure as hell doesn't want to move anywhere, the little lever type next to it will move quite easily but the long needle shaped bit is pretty dam solid,

I tried looking at while reving the engine (no small feat by yourself) and could not see any movement (does it move noticably?)

Where would one put the paper in Mr MX6 Paper test????

I decided to do this due to a noise on start up, sounds like tapping so I geuss lifters (not that I know exactly what they are).


BUt topping up oil like that is crazy, I have never once topped up my oil, in over 15 months of ownership, I get it changed every 5000 km and thats my oil done, I am due for a service and I just checked mine it is fine,
so oil loss like that is obcence and certainly not a trait of the car.

[ssman]

found this on the net....
"...The piston can overheat and knocking can and will occur. This knocking is caused by ignition of the gas/air mix in your cylinder before the spark of the spark plug. This causes temperature and pressure peaks that will melt your piston, crack your cylinder head, and drop one of your exhaust valves. You have heard about those abrupt deaths of air cooled engines..."
Pinging sounds like rocks being thrown around inside your engine. It will never happen at idle, may happen at part throttle, but is most likely to happen at full throttle. It is usually accompanied by a small amount of smoke out of the tailpipe, but don't rely on that.

Pinging is like... taking a cutting torch to your combustion chamber. Your engine can stand anywhere from less than one second to perhaps minute of pinging before it suffers permanent and serious damage, depending on conditions.

The hotter your engine is, the more likely your engine is to ping. The farther your timing is advanced, the more likely your engine is to ping. The higher your compression ratio is, the more likely your engine is to ping. The lower the octane of gas you use, the more likely your engine is to ping.

So, in order to minimize the risk of pinging, do the following:


Make sure your engine doesn't over heat!
Make sure your timing is not too far advanced.
Make sure your compression ratio is not too high (< 7.5 to 1)
If necessary, use higher octane gas.
If you take care of the first three, you shouldn't have to worry about the last one.

Originally Posted by Mr MX6

I have my moments.. lol
I'm not trying to be rude, but do you know what pinging is?
or is it more of a mis-fire? have you swaped your leads lately?