HLA vs SUB in BA Astinas - Page 2

Rupewrecht · 18-11-2011, 11:13 AM

Thread title changes as per OP request

/admin

project.r.racing · 18-11-2011, 11:25 AM

I am a total noob when it comes to SUBs.

If I get cams where the base circle is 3mm smaller than the OEM cams, do I just purchase replace top discs that are 1.5mm thicker than the originals?

Yes I know I will need to check the passage between disc and cam and measure with 0.05mm. Cause it could be 1.55mm or 1.45mm difference.

But it just seems too easy to measure, order, replace. Am I missing something?

Cosmo Dude · 18-11-2011, 11:54 AM

Best to check to see if you can re-use the ones you have or at least some of them. When you find the price of just one and multiply it by 16 a couple hundred bucks can disappear very quickly.
All of a sudden a regrind doesn't look like a cheap option.

TheMAN · 18-11-2011, 02:42 PM

you're incorrect yet again mate... the stock solid lifter setup in any mazda engine that has it is shim OVER bucket... as shown in the pics on the previous page, you will see that you have a metal disc over the tappet... Nissan and Toyota also uses this style of lifter

the pics of those lifters are the top side view, so if you have a strong torch, you can see if you have HLAs or not

shim under bucket is more common in racing applications where valvetrain mass is important... shim under buckets are lighter but are difficult to adjust... shim under buckets is a small cap that fits over the valve stem and the tappet goes on top of that shim... mazdaspeed in one time made shim under bucket lifters for the BP

the cheapest cam upgrade for the BP in the series 3 BA are the 98-00 MX-5 cams... much more aggressive timings and since the base circles are the same, there should be little to no adjustments involved

project.r.racing · 18-11-2011, 02:57 PM

Looked into that. In cam 4 Degrees ex can 1 Degrees increases. Not much gains.

TheMAN · 18-11-2011, 03:10 PM

what do you mean?
your stock intake cam is 233 degrees, the aussie MX-5 intake cam is 241 degrees... that's 8 degrees difference, not 4
but it's true that the exhaust cam only is 1 degree longer in duration...

so actually, it seems like the best combination is to use the MX-5 intake cam and keep your stock exhaust cam... you get 18 degrees of overlap... the MX-5 exhaust cam brings it down to 17 degrees overlap

18 degrees is pretty wild.... it'll give good high rpm power for sure!
but the most important thing is... the upgrade is cheap if you find a 2nd hand cam!

SLY 323 · 18-11-2011, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TheMAN

what do you mean?
your stock intake cam is 233 degrees, the aussie MX-5 intake cam is 241 degrees... that's 8 degrees difference, not 4
but it's true that the exhaust cam only is 1 degree longer in duration...

so actually, it seems like the best combination is to use the MX-5 intake cam and keep your stock exhaust cam... you get 18 degrees of overlap... the MX-5 exhaust cam brings it down to 17 degrees overlap

18 degrees is pretty wild.... it'll give good high rpm power for sure!
but the most important thing is... the upgrade is cheap if you find a 2nd hand cam!

So are you saying that purchasing the mx-5 intake cam over buying 2 custom grind cams from a reputable brand/company will give the best performance results?

TheMAN · 18-11-2011, 03:40 PM

no, but I'm saying it is the most economical option; buying the cam 2nd hand
new from dealer might not be very appealing

SLY 323 · 18-11-2011, 03:46 PM

I certainly would rather the extra cash for the extra performance.

project.r.racing · 18-11-2011, 11:10 PM

My question still stands
can you fit an over shim that is 1.5mm thicker without troubles?

TheMAN · 19-11-2011, 05:10 AM

it can be done, but it increases the weight of the valvetrain, which causes power loss... if the lash isn't set properly, there is greater risk the shim can come off and destroy the head

if you're going to run regrinds, using real shim under buckets is the way to go... but parts are expensive and so is labour

project.r.racing · 19-11-2011, 08:47 AM

No problem. I was gonna buy new HLAs anyway, so buying some SUBs instead isn't gonna hurt the bank balance too much.

Labour won't be too much either. I'll pretend I know what I'm doing and try it myself 1st. Worst case is I get someone else to sort it out. Just gotta give it a go and learn something new.

I've got the BA B6-BP Workshop Manual and a torque wrench. What could go wrong? lol

ghetto3 · 27-11-2011, 01:09 AM

All that money spent on noisy tappet solution! I have a jan/97 built BA, did the down the oil cap rap and saw a bucket and shim surprize. So whats causing that noise i wonder? Great another night having that how will i afford an engine rebuild nightmare!

TheMAN · 27-11-2011, 07:56 AM

ticking noise is usually from the fuel injectors, NOT the valvetrain

project.r.racing · 06-04-2012, 10:42 AM

BP-05 head

Note the disc sitting on to of the lifter.

Head also has some of the casting removed for the larger lift cams,l (something I hadn't noticed before!)

project.r.racing · 13-04-2012, 02:32 PM

Found an easier way to check the lifters. If you take the dissy or CAS off, you get a clear view of one of them. Much clearer/easier than trying to look down the oil fill hole.

18-11-2011, 11:13 AM	#21
Rupewrecht Administrator Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: melb.vic.au Car: AZ-1, Astina Hardtop Turbo, BJ Protege, Beetle Posts: 16,525 View Photos By: Rupewrecht	Thread title changes as per OP request /admin __________________ jdmparts.rupewrecht.com Sourcing your not-quite-overnight parts from Japan WRECHT--\|--SLOWTEGE--\|--BEETLE--\|--SUBSTITUTE--\|--AZ-1

18-11-2011, 11:25 AM	#22
project.r.racing Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: n/a Car: n/a Posts: 10,929	I am a total noob when it comes to SUBs. If I get cams where the base circle is 3mm smaller than the OEM cams, do I just purchase replace top discs that are 1.5mm thicker than the originals? Yes I know I will need to check the passage between disc and cam and measure with 0.05mm. Cause it could be 1.55mm or 1.45mm difference. But it just seems too easy to measure, order, replace. Am I missing something? Last edited by project.r.racing; 18-11-2011 at 11:27 AM.

18-11-2011, 11:54 AM	#23
Cosmo Dude コスモ Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Location: Vic Car: Mazda '95 Astina I4, '86 B2K and '10 3 MZR-CD Posts: 7,888 View Photos By: Cosmo Dude	Best to check to see if you can re-use the ones you have or at least some of them. When you find the price of just one and multiply it by 16 a couple hundred bucks can disappear very quickly. All of a sudden a regrind doesn't look like a cheap option. __________________ My 'stina Hatch

18-11-2011, 02:42 PM	#24
TheMAN Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Car: . Posts: 2,623	you're incorrect yet again mate... the stock solid lifter setup in any mazda engine that has it is shim OVER bucket... as shown in the pics on the previous page, you will see that you have a metal disc over the tappet... Nissan and Toyota also uses this style of lifter the pics of those lifters are the top side view, so if you have a strong torch, you can see if you have HLAs or not shim under bucket is more common in racing applications where valvetrain mass is important... shim under buckets are lighter but are difficult to adjust... shim under buckets is a small cap that fits over the valve stem and the tappet goes on top of that shim... mazdaspeed in one time made shim under bucket lifters for the BP the cheapest cam upgrade for the BP in the series 3 BA are the 98-00 MX-5 cams... much more aggressive timings and since the base circles are the same, there should be little to no adjustments involved __________________ Protege FAQ, the best 323/Protege/Mazda3 resource enjoyed worldwide for 10 years

18-11-2011, 03:10 PM	#26
TheMAN Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Car: . Posts: 2,623	what do you mean? your stock intake cam is 233 degrees, the aussie MX-5 intake cam is 241 degrees... that's 8 degrees difference, not 4 but it's true that the exhaust cam only is 1 degree longer in duration... so actually, it seems like the best combination is to use the MX-5 intake cam and keep your stock exhaust cam... you get 18 degrees of overlap... the MX-5 exhaust cam brings it down to 17 degrees overlap 18 degrees is pretty wild.... it'll give good high rpm power for sure! but the most important thing is... the upgrade is cheap if you find a 2nd hand cam! __________________ Protege FAQ, the best 323/Protege/Mazda3 resource enjoyed worldwide for 10 years

18-11-2011, 02:57 PM	#25
project.r.racing Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: n/a Car: n/a Posts: 10,929	Looked into that. In cam 4 Degrees ex can 1 Degrees increases. Not much gains.

18-11-2011, 03:40 PM	#28
TheMAN Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Car: . Posts: 2,623	no, but I'm saying it is the most economical option; buying the cam 2nd hand new from dealer might not be very appealing __________________ Protege FAQ, the best 323/Protege/Mazda3 resource enjoyed worldwide for 10 years

18-11-2011, 03:46 PM	#29
SLY 323 Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Wollongong Car: 95' Mazda BA 323 Posts: 747	I certainly would rather the extra cash for the extra performance. __________________ Too many Mazdas. ♡

18-11-2011, 11:10 PM	#30
project.r.racing Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: n/a Car: n/a Posts: 10,929	My question still stands can you fit an over shim that is 1.5mm thicker without troubles?

19-11-2011, 05:10 AM	#31
TheMAN Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Car: . Posts: 2,623	it can be done, but it increases the weight of the valvetrain, which causes power loss... if the lash isn't set properly, there is greater risk the shim can come off and destroy the head if you're going to run regrinds, using real shim under buckets is the way to go... but parts are expensive and so is labour __________________ Protege FAQ, the best 323/Protege/Mazda3 resource enjoyed worldwide for 10 years Last edited by TheMAN; 19-11-2011 at 05:15 AM.

19-11-2011, 08:47 AM	#32
project.r.racing Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: n/a Car: n/a Posts: 10,929	No problem. I was gonna buy new HLAs anyway, so buying some SUBs instead isn't gonna hurt the bank balance too much. Labour won't be too much either. I'll pretend I know what I'm doing and try it myself 1st. Worst case is I get someone else to sort it out. Just gotta give it a go and learn something new. I've got the BA B6-BP Workshop Manual and a torque wrench. What could go wrong? lol Last edited by project.r.racing; 19-11-2011 at 08:56 AM.

27-11-2011, 01:09 AM	#33
ghetto3 Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: north coast nsw Car: 97 ba 1.8 323 Posts: 799	All that money spent on noisy tappet solution! I have a jan/97 built BA, did the down the oil cap rap and saw a bucket and shim surprize. So whats causing that noise i wonder? Great another night having that how will i afford an engine rebuild nightmare!

27-11-2011, 07:56 AM	#34
TheMAN Senior Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: USA Car: . Posts: 2,623	ticking noise is usually from the fuel injectors, NOT the valvetrain __________________ Protege FAQ, the best 323/Protege/Mazda3 resource enjoyed worldwide for 10 years

06-04-2012, 10:42 AM	#35
project.r.racing Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: n/a Car: n/a Posts: 10,929	BP-05 head Note the disc sitting on to of the lifter. Head also has some of the casting removed for the larger lift cams,l (something I hadn't noticed before!)

13-04-2012, 02:32 PM	#36
project.r.racing Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: n/a Car: n/a Posts: 10,929	Found an easier way to check the lifters. If you take the dissy or CAS off, you get a clear view of one of them. Much clearer/easier than trying to look down the oil fill hole.